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Old 08-15-2016, 07:29 PM   #1
Steve0
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Two days ago, the engine light came on. Yesterday, the car wouldn't start. Today, the repair shop is telling me I have at least a $2,500 repair to do, involving replacing the timing chain and two other chains. After the engine is put back together, they say there may be even more work yet.

This is a 2012 Eos Executive that I've had for about 4 1/2 years now. It has over 130,000 miles on it. I still owe about $7,000 on it. Its trade in value on a good day might be that. But this is not that day.

This is my second Eos. Even now, I don't know what other car I'd want. Do I sink half the residual value of the car into a major repair or...

I have found a used 2015 Eos Executive for about $30,000 at a dealer, and hopefully I can negotiate a better deal. But what to do with my brokedown 2012 then?

I always swore I'd drive this car into the ground. I thought that would be somewhere around 200,000 miles (about two years from now, for me). I didn't think it would be so soon.

Maybe this is an opportunity to buy the last Eos Executive before they go the way of the dodo bird.

I am not having a good day.
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Old 08-16-2016, 02:55 PM   #2
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Yours is a sad story. End of the road for an EOS is usually a replacement roof. In a way, your problem is no different to any other VAG group motor and at least it is mechanical and not the roof.

It's not obvious from your post what is wrong. Is there a suspicion that valves have hit pistons due to a timing chain fault? $2500 doesn't sound expensive when a new roof and fitting can be over $10,000!

Repair labor is probably your biggest expense. Have you spoken to another shop who may not be a VW dealership but has experience of VW engine repairs? Their labor charges might be a lot lower. You must accept the possibility of further damage. The first step to throw some money at should be removing engine parts to fully assess what has happened as you don't have enough hard info at the moment. If they lift the cylinder head and find bent valves and holed pistons, you then have to make the next decision. Time wise I find removing parts is quicker than replacing them. An independent is more likely to work with used parts from another VW model with the same engine.

I think I would set a maximum limit for further investigation and have major parts removed for a look see. At worst you have a used lower mileage short engine fitted, or sell the car as is for peanuts as a non-runner with a serious engine fault. At best the investigation won't find serious mechanical damage and you can commit to completing the repair.

If your EOS is at a dealership you always have the option to have it transported or towed somewhere else.

Before starting this journey, find out if there are any known engine issues and whether VW will contribute towards the repair costs. Be careful because any 'goodwill' offer may be based on their high labor charges and retail parts prices, not what an independent might do for you.
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Old 08-16-2016, 09:09 PM   #3
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OP, they should give you more information to help your decision as Voxmagna has discussed. Your 2012 should have the revised timing chain tensioner from the factory, but other things can go wrong with the system. Loose chains, worn-out guides, etc.

They should be able to check compression and use a borescope to look for internal damage to the pistons.

$2.5K seems a bit excessive for the three chains and labor. Parts can't be more than $500 (sample kit here: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...FclZhgodKZAMbg), so are they talking 15-20 hours in labor? I had the front of our engine off to do the tensioner and it wasn't that bad, and I'm a slowpoke. But, as with all of these things who knows what the book labor rate is for the task.
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Old 08-16-2016, 10:23 PM   #4
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In UK with tax and overheads they say main dealer shop rates are nearly $130 per hour. If it really is 15 hours labor, that makes it nearly $2k. Which is why I would always shop around for a fair labor rate from a competent independent with VW engine experience.

I always thought the 'experts' could do these jobs really quick with all the VW tools and know how? Therefore a high labor rate done in a shorter efficient time was most cost effective to the customer?

I remember having to get a clutch replaced on a horizontal motor. I fell over at the dealer price. Then I went to a national clutch repair franchise who do clutches all day long at a fraction of dealer prices using OE spec parts.

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Old 08-18-2016, 03:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna View Post
Have you spoken to another shop who may not be a VW dealership but has experience of VW engine repairs? Their labor charges might be a lot lower. You must accept the possibility of further damage. The first step to throw some money at should be removing engine parts to fully assess what has happened as you don't have enough hard info at the moment. If they lift the cylinder head and find bent valves and holed pistons, you then have to make the next decision. Time wise I find removing parts is quicker than replacing them. An independent is more likely to work with used parts from another VW model with the same engine.

I think I would set a maximum limit for further investigation and have major parts removed for a look see. At worst you have a used lower mileage short engine fitted, or sell the car as is for peanuts as a non-runner with a serious engine fault. At best the investigation won't find serious mechanical damage and you can commit to completing the repair.
voxmagna, what you suggested is exactly what I have done. I had the car towed yesterday to an experienced, well-reviewed nearby VW/Audi specialist. They didn't get to my car yesterday, but hopefully they looked at it today. At this writing, I am awaiting their diagnosis. I think they must be pricing out a junkyard engine for me.

I stopped by there this morning to get some stuff out of my car, and found the battery (which I replaced about 50,000 miles ago) dead. I couldn't open the trunk, the windows wouldn't descend that inch and the dashboard display wouldn't illuminate when I opened the door.

I don't know if this happened at the AAA shop, or because of something the tow truck operator or the specialist shop did. It's just another part of a perfect day.

Hopefully I'll know more tomorrow. Fingers crossed for anything better than the worst news.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:32 AM   #6
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Don't worry it's in safer hands. In the heat of the moment, breakdown call out etc or even towing, somebody unfamiliar with your car could have left the lights on or a door open?

Good luck with the diagnosis. Let us know what they find. I didn't mention the obvious but if they put in used parts you cannot expect guarantees. Their advice choosing the right used parts should be priceless and worth some beers! If your battery is dead you can still open the driver door with the key, then open the ski hatch and pull the emergency release to open the trunk. With the door open you could have checked the light switches (inc. interior lights).

I don't know how your junkyards work. Over here you used to go along with tools and take off your parts, which could be lot of work. Now used parts and recycling is big business, they take the parts off, clean them up and catalog on computer, which makes finding the right part a lot easier.
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Old 08-19-2016, 02:07 AM   #7
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Friends tell me that the fact that I didn't hear any clattering from the engine when I was trying to start the car last Sunday is a hopeful sign that the pistons and valves survived with minimal or no damage and my engine may be repairable.

At this writing, still no news from the shop.
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Old 08-19-2016, 08:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
.....the repair shop is telling me I have at least a $2,500 repair to do, involving replacing the timing chain and two other chains. After the engine is put back together, they say there may be even more work yet.
Safe hands and trust are priceless in times of uncertainty. Fingers crossed for a good outcome
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Old 08-20-2016, 02:37 PM   #9
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I feel for yor pain but I need to know what your maintenance schedule was.

There are several class action suits underway withy VW/Audi over engine failures as they neglected this important item in the service schedules mentioned in the owners manual.

Being a new owner of an older Eos (2008) that Has 92,000 miles on it I know I must do the water pump/timing chain/tensioner repair before 105,000 miles, When I bought a used BMW 325 Cvt the first thing I did was the timing belt/water pump replacement as it had 90k on the clock. When I had my Jetta Eco Diesel the timing belt was replaced at 80k just to be safe.

Did you do the repair before 105,000 miles? Were you the original purchaser and are you aware of all the litigation under way wit VW/Audi?

Please keep us informed of your progress so we can learn from your situation
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Old 08-20-2016, 05:14 PM   #10
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I can understand if you have the complete paper trail of full VW service and regular inspections, owners could be in with a chance for a negligence claim, particularly when a design defect can be proved as the cause and VW had opportunities at services points or to issue a recall and do something about it. We should remember that those with expert knowledge have a greater duty of care to know what causes major failures and provide timely solutions.

At some point you have to involve the non-impartial VW dealer - or can you go to qualified independent whose report will still hold up? I can see the owner is at a big disadvantage when VW will probably say only they can fully assess your car (which you pay for!) before you can think about a claim?

Then I can see a car off the road and in pieces for a long time whilst everybody argues about whose to blame, whose going to pay and what kind of repair will be done. I can also see plenty of lawyers queuing up to take up a winable case whilst your car is in limbo between garages, lawyers and the paperwork that will follow. Every car and its circumstances are going to be different and I would be surprised if a class action produces a one solution fits all. It's not the same as a safety recall where the risk to human life, expensive litigation and the involvement of regulators forces a manufacturer driven solution.

The water pump, or rather the bearings, is a known issue on most engines with shared chain or belt driving both pump and camshaft. My Tdi has had a new belt and roller bearing tensioner, but when it reaches 60K it will get a new water pump, whatever service instruction says or doesn't say. Having done my own belt work, I know it isn't a huge job when all done together, although it's recommended on VAGs to vacuum fill the cooling system.

Belt failure on an old or worn belt is usually quick, whilst water pumps often give some early warning. Unfortunately, not everybody is tuned to the sounds and leakage signs or realizes the consequences. Before toothed and ribbed poly belts were invented I would regularly hear cars running in Winter with squealing 'V' belts and drivers seemingly oblivious.
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Old 08-21-2016, 03:12 AM   #11
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seb1899, I have all the service records from scheduled maintenance visits to VW dealers. The last one was done at 106k and the previous one at 95k. The one at 106k cost $168, so you know it wasn't much more than an oil change. The previous one at 95k cost $1,235 of which the most expensive item was cleaning intake values ($582). Also included replace serpentine belt. Spark plugs were replaced at 90k. Looks like another intake valve cleaning and replace all four ignition coils at 87k. No reference to timing chain or tensioner anywhere, not even a recommendation from the service department. (They do notate recommended service items that the customer declined.)

I am not the first owner the car. I purchased this 2012 in February 2013 with 8,500 miles on it from a used BMW dealer (a sister dealership to a VW dealer). They did not tell me at the time this car had been in an accident. I learned of that many tens of thousands of miles later when I purchased a new set of tires and had the wheels aligned, and the tire dealer said, "Because the frame is slightly bent, it's impossible to align these tires properly. Has this car been in an accident?" I notice also that the driver-side door rides slightly slow to shut properly. It needs a good pull.

I didn't know about the "known issue" of the timing belt tensioner until I had the oil changed by a local VW specialist on July 6, and they told me. They told me it was an expense proposition to even check my engine for the issue. Feeling like sky could fall, I did some online research and thus became aware of the issue and the controversy and litigation.

Of note, their service receipt said, "Note there is minor oil leaking around upper & possibly lower timing chain covers but is not sever[e]."

Then, five weeks later, BAM! The sky fell. That was last week.

At this writing, I am still awaiting an estimate from the VW specialist. (Not the same one who warned me last month.) At last word, they said all chains and tensioners do need to be replaced. They suspect greater damage, but cannot verify it until they have the engine taken apart. And that would be after 6 hours labor. So, like the AAA shop before it, the specialist is probably going to quote me $2,500 for the repair and another amount TBD.

Option #2 is to replace the engine with another used engine. The specialist shop is trying to locate one for me. At that point they we will probably discuss the repair or replace options. They will warrantee a replacement engine for 24 months/24,000 miles. 24,000 miles is 8-9 months of driving for me.

Option #3 is to junk the car. That might net me $1,000 but would cost me $7,000 as that is what is due and owing on the loan.

If I pursue option #3, there is a 2015 VW Eos Executive with 12,000 miles on it at (coincidentally) a BMW dealership in Princeton, for just under $30k. But as much as I love the Eos, I'd be a fool to buy it. For that kind of money, I could get a 2013 BMW 3 series hardtop convertible coming off lease, generally with 30,000 miles. But I'm not sure I want to do that.

Or I could (with great pain) give up the idea of driving a convertible entirely, and get a "safe bet" like a Honda Accord Coupe. Save some money, parts easy to get, blah blah blah. Blech!

The VW specialist says he just about never sees a Volvo in his shop. (There's a Volvo dealer across the street where he used to work.) But Volvo stopped making the C70 folding hardtop some years ago, and no longer offer a convertible. There the Lexus IS250C, but that car can't get out of its own way. The IS350C, and the Infiniti G37 convertible are over my budget. And I won't consider a soft-top; I drive too much and plan to keep the car too long.

In the end, once the numbers are presented, I'll probably have the engine replaced to get a few more years out of my Eos, and the $7,000 loan balance won't be wasted.

Do I get involved in litigation? From what I've read, VW is fighting back hard, and I don't see a lot of people getting satisfaction -- at least, not without a long fight. I just need to get back on the road (the car rentals in the meanwhile are killing me) and put this episode behind me. I was involved in a lawsuit a few years ago and came away feeling like the law is a joke and doesn't offer the average Joe any protection. Why would I want to line another expensive lawyer's pockets for an uncertain outcome?

Edit: After reading further about the class action lawsuit, I have sent an e-mail to the lawyer concerned. Sounds like I have little or nothing to lose.
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Old 08-21-2016, 05:25 PM   #12
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The engine failure is a terrible thing to have to absorb. Looking at your options in my view the used replacement might be the lowest cost and if you do it you could probably sell the car at a price that covers your repair costs and your o/s bal, If you do sell I would not go back for another Eos since you are a high mileage driver.

I had a 1992 BMW 325 i (in 1996)convertible that ran like a champ, used regular gas and although it had a soft top it was not too noisy. I bought it with 90k on it and no service history so I did the timing belt right away, The car was used for business travel and never let me down so I think you would get longer life from the BMW (if you can get a good deal for one coming off lease either a hard or soft top) properly maintained it should go 200k. I only sold it because I retired to Myrtle Beach and thought I nedeed a p/u truck

I would have bought a BMW if the price had not been in the way but the Eos I bought was cheap since it has a salvage/rebuilt NC Title and it replaced a '97 Saab 900 Cvt that had 144k on it that may have had a leaking head gasket. I only put about 3000 mi on it in a year as it was towed on a dolly behind my small Class C motorhome. I felt I needed a more 'main stream' car when I tow it and might find my self camped in 'West Tree Stump' so I dumped the Saab)With the salvage title I am probably wedded to the Eos for life. (my story is in the new owner section)

before I retired I had Mercedes cars but they are expensive to properly maintain and that is the reason our primary vehicle is a 2011 Hyundai Azera Limited it was purchased new (probably my last new vehicle purchase) and after 5 yrs it has run 45k mi with no problems other than a set of new tires and regular (not synthetic) oil changes.

If you can live without driving a convertible (not an easy thing) you might want to consider a Hyundai product because of the long warranty, cheap operation (reg gas) and low cost (good deals on Sonatas hybrids, turbos and regular engines)

This was a long winded response but you will come out of this crappy period and may be able to limit your loss but I think you would be better off without another Eos.
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Old 08-23-2016, 12:19 AM   #13
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Things have gone from bad to worse: the ballpark repair estimates on my Eos have just jacked up substantially.

To repair my existing engine would likely be in the $7,000+ range. To replace it with a junkyard engine (which would probably be high mileage) would likely be in the $10,000+ range.

With $7,000 still owing on this car, and a $7,000 KBB value, I think it's time to cut my losses.

I collected all my belongings from the car today. I'll have to go back to remove the SmartTop module. I'm sure the shop will want this car off their lot soon.

I loved the Eos. I still love the Eos. There's no other car like it. I would have been happy to drive this car forever and be buried in it when I die. But I outlived it.
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Old 08-23-2016, 09:06 AM   #14
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Sorry to hear your sad conclusion. I keep reminding myself that yours is not an EOS model specific problem, but one with an engine used in many other VW group cars. We have had a couple of posters facing a similar position to yourself but that has been due to needing a complete new roof. If your car is sold for parts a working roof is very desireable. I think I would be cautious buying a 2.0 liter VW gasoline car in future.

I have another 2012 vehicle which has a later version of MY07 EOS 2l diesel engine with their tricked ECU. In 5 years they have made the later engine so much more complex and difficult to get to and some repair operations are a huge labor bill.

The factory has an easy time fitting a complete engine on the production line, but if owners have problems they pay a huge price to repair them.
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Old 08-23-2016, 03:51 PM   #15
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I'm sorry to hear of your story. Are you the original owner? Did the Owner's Manual say to do the timing belt at 105K miles? Given the time I've own cars, I've always been mindful of the timing belt given the damage it can cause if it snaps. That's why I don't just rely on the VW recommended service, although they should have said something since their computer systems should be mirroring the manual's maintenance schedule.
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:54 AM   #16
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I'm not the original owner. I bought this Eos at 8,500 miles. And I used the owner's manual as a quick reference guide when, for example, the EPC light came on. I didn't read the book through, but relied on VW dealer service to tell me what I needed, when I needed it. I spent thousands of dollars there keeping this car up, because I was planning to drive it to 200,000 miles and beyond. But this, they never mentioned.
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:36 AM   #17
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Yours is a sad tale. I must admit I don't read the owners manual line by line, but I do read what others post on the internet. Shared information comes with accuracy risks but generally it is impartial.

VW were also silent when it came to EOS roof service which might put off new customers with the added cost. You will find most dealerships tell you it is not necessary and it is not in the usual list of service items. Ignore periodic roof service lubrication and you suffer the consequences of a leaking roof and further consequences of water in the trunk and a damaged roof pump!

Belt change intervals for my Tdi confused me. I know about the mileage AND time period, whichever comes first. One source I read said replacement poly belts were good to 80K plus, and another said 48-60K max. If I look at later model years for MY07 Tdi I see higher replacement mileages on the belt. However, my rule of thumb has always been 5 years or 48K. Having carefully inspected my old belt and bearing at 48k I would say the bearing was definitely like new and would probably go to 60K. The belt also appeared good without nicks or excessive stretch and I think that could have gone to 60K. My water pump will definitely be replaced at 60K.

I often wonder when a manufacturer increases a service life recommend and the (belt) technology hasn't changed much? They are under pressure to compete and sell new cars which don't need frequent servicing therefore I would trust my own 60K judgement first before theirs. If my belt could have gone to 80K I've thrown away 20k of belt life, but I've not risked a grenaded engine.
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:00 AM   #18
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First let me say that I am sorry for your situation.

I would be VERY interested in parts off your car- if ya have any interest in that path.
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:04 AM   #19
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OEM-VW-A...VWTfjd&vxp=mtr

just an option- I hate to see a beautiful car off the road

Robert
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:44 AM   #20
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The TSI timing chain tensioner is a know problem. Other VW makes have a higher incidence only because of a higher number of manufactured units. The redesigned tensioner appeared sometime in the 2012 model year. On the VW Vortex forum, the generally accepted time for the appearance of the new redesigned tensioner is around December of 2011, with some variability depending on the model. We have a 2012 Tiguan and I know of folks that have 2012s that came with the old style tensioner. VW is very reluctant to pay for these if the powertrain warranty is up, but a few folks have gotten "good will" from their dealers to help write off some of the costs.
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Old 08-25-2016, 04:21 AM   #21
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Techvet, since I'm not the first owner, and purchased my Eos with 8,500 miles on it from a used BMW dealer, I don't expect much cooperation from VW corporate. The VW dealer where I had most of my scheduled maintenances done, no longer exists. Another VW dealer where I had a couple of scheduled maintenances done, I don't think would be cooperative in fighting this out with VW corporate or offer me any good will; and anyway, how long do I want to struggle with this? I need another car NOW. I'm driving a rental and insurance isn't covering it. There's nothing left but to trade it in. I tried to sell it as-is locally for its trade-in value, but no takers. It's a shame. I driveway-washed my Eos every weekend and polished it with Zaino. You'd never know it had 130k on it. It is a beauty. Or was.

texansfan, I want this car off my hands, so I won't be parting it out or repairing it now, at any cost. I'll be taking a loss against the car loan.

I might try to salvage the SmartTop if there's time. I'm seeing a car dealer tomorrow.
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1texansfan1 View Post
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-OEM-VW-A...VWTfjd&vxp=mtr

just an option- I hate to see a beautiful car off the road

Robert
If the mind is willing there's always a way. The OP's problem is he can't or doesn't want to do his own work and the labor charge for engine replacement may be outside his budget, or another car is his chosen option. There is bound to be somebody who will consider a cheap non-runner cabriolet needing a replacement engine could give them a good car.
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Old 08-26-2016, 03:01 AM   #23
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Guys, I'm a computer analyst, not an auto mechanic; and even for a driveway mechanic, replacing an engine is not for the faint of heart, and would probably take at least weeks for an amateur mechanic to do.

I need a car NOW, to drive to work, to run errands, etc., etc., etc. I'm busy just about all the time.

I accepted $3,000 to trade in my 2012 Eos Executive. It's not that I'm rich--this hurts! But I have to get back on the road without bleeding any more money on rentals.

I asked the VW specialist garage to get the SmartTop out for me, but only if they can do it in under an hour (they've never seen one before; I e-mailed them the manual). I don't have the time or inclination to do it myself, and the car is just hours from being towed to the dealership.

I test drove a 2013 BMW 328i convertible this morning, with a trim level similar to the Eos Executive (heated power seats, in-dash navigation, Sirius radio, premium audio). It's got under 18,000 miles coming off a lease.

Last week I test drove a 2015, the last year of the Eos Executive, with 12,000 miles on it. Both cars were about the same price. Which would you choose?

Years ago, when I bought my first Eos, a 2008 Komfort, in April 2009, I also test-drove a BMW 3 ragtop. First time I'd driven a BMW, the "driver's car." I couldn't feel the magic of it, and I was coming off another ragtop (a 2001 Chrysler Sebring), and wanted the folding hardtop--a decision I didn't regret, as a few years later, I traded it in for another Eos.

But driving that BMW this morning (just the second time I've driven one), I felt like this was a more refined Eos. It handled so precisely. This car had me at go.

I hope I get more years out of it than I did the Eos. And I hope my wallet recovers, because the payoff on my Eos is over $7,200. This is gonna hurt, but I'm not looking back.

(P.S. The SmartTop for the 328i is way more expensive than the Eos version.)
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2008 Eos Komfort - Thunder Blue - Cornsilk Beige Interior - SmartTop

Last edited by Steve0; 08-26-2016 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 02:27 PM   #24
seb1899
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I had a 1992 325 I which I drove on business. In 1996 I received .32 per mile as reimbursement no car allowance though. It served me well and it was fun to drive. It had good trunk space and even with the soft top it was not to noisy,

Be advised that the current BMWs are not without cam/timing chain issues,. I was told by the service people I am using for my Eos that when these faults show up when the vehicles are serviced they are quietly repairing them; mostly as a good will gesture. I do not know if there are service bulletins on these issues but BMW is looking after these problems, I do not know if it is for all owners or only the original purchaser,

If you are going the BMW route it would behoove you to research via BMW forums what these issues are and get a good warranty when you make your purchase.

Good luck with your new car and soon this unpleasant occurrence will be a fading memory
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:27 AM   #25
1texansfan1
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I am sorry to hear another EOS is not going to be driven. I hope ya enjoy and it is really reliable for you.
Maybe another EOS will pass your path.
Robert
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