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Old 09-13-2016, 10:57 AM   #1
MichaelT1989
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Default Roof pump / motor removal

Hi,

I am looking to remove the roof pump and motor from my partner's 2008 Eos.

It has been damaged due to water ingress and I want to get it out to try overhaul it and test it on a bench. If the motor is knackered I will replace it with a new one for her.

My question is, does any body have experience removing this? I am unsure how the hydraulic cable lines are removed from the pump. Any help or guidance appreciated.

Michael
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:05 AM   #2
voxmagna
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I'm pretty sure they are push and click fit with a seal, but there are lots and you need to make sure they go back in the correct places.

It's unlikely the motor is faulty. Check the solenoid valve coil resistances and for shorts to the case. if those are o.k move on to the motor. Make sure you ditch their open cell foam if it is still there. New VW pumps are a horrendous price. Research a recon. of your pump.

Last edited by voxmagna; 09-13-2016 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 09-13-2016, 11:13 AM   #3
MichaelT1989
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Hi, Thanks for your response.

Water has caused some corrosion to the motor body and the 40 amp fuse has blown. So I presumed there is something wrong electrically caused but the water ingress.

I wanted to get it out so I could test everything on a bench such as the solenoids.

Do the hydraulic cables just pull out then?
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Old 09-13-2016, 12:14 PM   #4
voxmagna
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Quote:
the 40 amp fuse has blown
That sounds like a motor short then. If you are able to tear it apart can you take photos and post them up? Even though the VW foam is a bad choice (read my mod.) and wicks up water, it has to go a long way before it reaches the motor. I would expect the lowest valve to be the first casuality. I haven't looked at the fusing layout. If they put the 3 valves on the same fuse () that could still be a cause.

These motors look similar to those they use for ABS. I tore one of those apart and it was pretty well made. For water to cause a 40 amp fuse to blow something else is going on. Either windings have corroded and shorted or the motor shaft has corroded, seized and stalled. Don't put a battery straight on the motor until you have checked these things and put a fuse in the line. Some things can surprise you. I would be surprised if they are using an electronically commutating motor, but if you find a bunch of electronics inside the motor that could be a possibility.

The hydraulic cylinder lines have a sliding locking device. You slide the lock and pull off the line. They say to renew the O ring oil seal, but that's up to you. I didn't look that hard at my pump connections so I can't say if they use the same slide lock at the pump end. Just have a good look or remove a line from a cylinder to see the fitting type. The hydraulic system is self bleeding.

I know the fluid reservoir comes off with a seal, but I don't know how far you can get into the motor. Some of these parts can only be got at with a drill and angle grinder!
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Old 09-13-2016, 01:00 PM   #5
MichaelT1989
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Again, great info thanks. I understand what you're saying.

I really am struggling to remove the hydraulic cables though. They're very stubborn and aren't budging at all. I go away tonight for 2 weeks of work and I promised the missus I'd have it removed to take away and test. No pressure ha!

I've attached some pics. Not a pretty sight. The bottom solenoid valve does look very badly corroded. If the coil is on the same fuse as the motor then it could be a cause I'd imagine. However, a fuse diagram for a 2008 UK Eos appears to be scarce.

Also I presume you can drive the car with the pump removed? I don't se what difference it will make as the roof is closed anyway. I really don't fancy giving her the reigns to my own car while I'm away








Last edited by MichaelT1989; 09-13-2016 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 09-13-2016, 05:03 PM   #6
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Your pump looks really bad and I'm glad I got to mine early It might be beyond recovery:
http://www.vweosclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23289

I can't see the lock clips they use at the other end. Similar pumps are used in other cabriolets. At the pump they either use a screw fitting or push fit. The EOS is push in. However, I did see a reference to removing T25 torx screws adjacent to the push in hoses but it wasn't EOS specific. I can see torx screws on your photo. As your pump is in a pretty bad way you might as well try and remove the torx. Either that will release the push in hoses, or it will release a block with all the hoses attached. The torx is in the center of a group of hoses and may have a cam on it.

Quote:
Also I presume you can drive the car with the pump removed? I don't se what difference it will make as the roof is closed anyway.
There could be an issue depending on the last stage of the roof before the pump failed. When the roof is fully closed the hydraulics operate pistons which close 2 'C' locks up front and secure the roof to stop it opening at speed and keep it secure in the event of a rollover. You may not know if the roof is locked or not and you don't want it flying open on the motorway. Diagnostics can tell you the status of the sensors and locks, but you may not have that. If you have been driving the car with the roof closed and the bad pump and not had any roof error messages like cabrio roof open, the locks may be in the closed state but I don't know if they stay that way when the pump is removed. The manual procedure to open the roof requires the pressure release on the pump body to be opened. That suggests residual pump pressure holds the locks closed.

I don't think you will be getting that pump operational tonight.

Your pump is a sad case and a warning to others to consider ditching the VW foam, locating leaks and installing a drain in the trunk floor as per my suggested mod.

Last edited by voxmagna; 09-13-2016 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 09-21-2016, 02:43 PM   #7
MichaelT1989
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Thanks for your help. It turns out you just loosen the Torx screws and they all come off together.

I managed to pick up a used pump/motor assembly for 150 delivered. Will let you know how I get on. Any advice is appreciated.
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Old 09-21-2016, 06:46 PM   #8
voxmagna
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A photo showing the connection blocks just lifted off the pump body would be informative for others since it was hard to find that information? If you can 'cannibalize' the old pump even with a drill and angle grinder and post photos that would also help. It would be of interest to others to see what internal damage water actually does and serve as a warning.

Before fitting the used pump, check all 3 valve solenoid resistances. Check the pump motor but that will be very low resistance and close to a short circuit.

Read up on my mod. to remove their foam or foam box and consider putting a drain in the boot floor under the pump motor like I did . Once you know the pump works, repaint any parts that might have had water on them and show plating corrosion then give its outer casings a good coat of WD40. Good Luck.

If you have had water in your boot you need to spend as much time finding and stopping the leak as fitting the replacement pump!

Last edited by voxmagna; 09-21-2016 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 09-29-2016, 06:39 PM   #9
MichaelT1989
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I have changed out the pump / motor. Actually very easy, a torx screw with ratchet helps immensely. However, I changed the 40 amp fuse before connecting the motor an solenoids back on and the fuse blew again.

As soon as I connected the negative back on to the battery the new fuse strip blew. The ignition wasn't even turned on. Does anybody have any ideas?

Without a fuse Diagram I have no idea what else runs off that fuse, however it can't just be the solenoids and motor, as these weren't even connected as I said.
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Old 09-30-2016, 09:34 AM   #10
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I PM'd you. It takes a a big fault to blow a 40 amp fuse. What you should have done is left the pump motor disconnected first, replaced the fuse then connected the pump. If the fuse blows without the pump connected you have a wiring or roof pump controller fault to check.

If you have the left side trim covers off to expose the roof controller you should be able to disconnect the plug with the fat wires which power the controller and pump. If the test lamp lights or the fuse still blows then, you must have a loom wiring fault.

You really shouldn't be fault finding by repeatedly replacing a fuse that size because you could do more damage. A better idea is to limit the current by fixing wires to an old main beam headlamp bulb and pushing those into the blade fuse holder. Disconnect all the plugs to the controller module and replace that 40A fuse with a smaller 5-10 amp fuse or lamp for testing. If it blows then you have a loom problem.

If the test lamp doesn't light bright that's good. Disconnect the pump and solenoid valves connector on the controller but reconnect the others one at a time then repeat checks with the 10 amp fuse or lamp. If it lights bright with no roof controller plugs fitted you have a loom fault. Reconnect the smaller plugs first leaving the pump connector till last. If the test lamp isn't lit bright you don't have a short.

Disconnect the wiring at the pump end then push in its connector at the controller. If the lamp lights you have a fault in that wiring. If O.K reconnect the pump wires at the pump and see if the test lamp lights. The pump motor should not be running and if the test lamp lights up you must have a short in the motor or the controller internal switch is blown up and permanently supplying power to the motor.

You can use the same lamp trick by disconnecting the pump motor and connecting a headlamp bulb lamp to its wires. It should not be lit all the time from key on. You can even try operating the roof, see the lamp light but expect a roof fault error without the pump.

Did you check the motor first and try measuring its (low) resistance? Is your sunroof working normally on the manual button without fuses blowing?
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Old 10-04-2016, 12:02 PM   #11
MichaelT1989
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I did not connect the motor or solenoids in before replacing the fuse, that would have been stupid haha!

I replaced the fuse and put the battery back on and it blew straight away with no ignition on.
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Old 10-04-2016, 02:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Disconnect all the plugs to the controller module and replace that 40A fuse with a smaller 5-10 amp fuse or lamp for testing.
Did you do that and what was the result? If you want to skip diagnostic steps worked out to help you and think you can save effort by not getting the trim off, you won't get a result and will keep floundering along. If you keep blowing big 40 Amp fuses and don't listen to the precautions I posted you could get more problems. Did you know that a 40 Amp fuse takes about 200 amps to blow?
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:50 PM   #13
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Hi, I am actually an Instrumentation & Automation Control Engineer. I'm not looking for a lecture in things I already know about electrical components. I really just need some advice on specific Eos questions. That is said with all due respect, as I appreciate all your in depth help, but a lot of it has been humoured.

I need to locate the roof control module, is it located on the left or right hand side of the boot? Does anybody know?

P.S Yes I understand the theory you are referring about popping a fuse. I haven't looked at the car since the day I replaced the pump and motor so I didn't ignore you and of course I am checking solenoid and motors with my multimeter
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:32 PM   #14
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It is located behind the lining in the boot at the left side. There have been reports of users about the place and leakages with the control unit getting wet in that place. If the car has a towbar there is also a controller for that as well in the area, otherwise it is the only controller located there.
You also need to take away the lining at the back of the boot. Take care of the wireing for the boot light as well as the microswitch detector at the left lining.
Best is to use a slightly too large torx screw driver on the plastic screws.
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Old 10-12-2016, 04:59 PM   #15
Mike Wood
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Smile Roof Pump Protection ....

Thanks to all the contributors to this thread. Extremely interesting, and all very relevant to me.

I have had my 2007 Eos for three months, and love it. The roof works well, doesn't leak, and appears, from the very clean condition of all the visible parts, to have been used little by previous owners.

However, on checking the Pump area (thanks VoxMagna) I found that the lowest part of the foam casing is definitely damp. I have yet to probe further, but intend to. I want to protect against further/future damage/failure. I have an early, and possibly 100% daft question, namely, is it possible to enclose the relevant lower part of the pump area in something like a suitably-sized Tupperware-type box ? It seems questionable to persevere with foams of any sort if there is a thoroughly waterproof alternative. There would, of course, still be a place for foam inside the box.
Any thoughts anyone ?
Mike
(2007 2.0 TDI Sport DSG, Arctic Blue, Chicago wheels, c.78,000 miles)
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Old 10-12-2016, 10:53 PM   #16
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Whatever you do regarding covering the pump, my main concern would be overheating of the motor when in use due to restricted cooling from its surroundings.

May be this is not a problem in the UK but would certainly be a consideration not to be overlooked in my part of the world.
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Old 10-13-2016, 01:27 PM   #17
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Yes the problem when considering an enclosure would be to maintain a cooling airflow, which is required by the motor particularly around the commutator and the solenoid valves. The hydraulic body parts will also rise in temperature, but their design will not allow airflow to do much because the pump block is solid aluminium with a relatively small surface area. In many housing designs where electronics require weather protection and cooling, air ducting and fans are used. But you need a clean cool air input and air discharge ducts. The space under the trunk cover is fairly well sealed up and it doesn't surprise me the pump enclosed in a foam box will trip the overheat sensor and lock out roof operation.

Take a look at what you are trying to achieve with a plastic sandwich box: Protection from water? If the original foam is removed and replaced with closed cell foam you will not get the water wicking up from the trunk floor. I don't think a few drops of water getting on the pump if the trunk is open a minute in rain is the issue. Instead of an enclosed box, a plastic 'roof' over the top would protect. Vibration? There are 2 isssues. 1. Noise from the pump may be more noticeable and closer to rear seat passengers. The noise my pump makes is not that annoying to me and I wouldn't worry about it. 2. Vibration to and along the hydraulic lines. This is something to think about. The pump needs support, but it is heavy and this will help damp vibrations to the splitter blocks and lines. I didn't have this problem but water leaking on to the hydraulic lines could run down along them and on to the pump. If VW had been clever they would have made the lines long enough to form a shallow bend loop away from the pump connection block and before the lines entered their foam box. If you are concerned about this, try adding small tywraps near the ends of each line away from the termination block leaving a short 'tab' for any water to run down instead of tracking on to the pump. The OE foam box does give some support to the large bunch of hydraulic lines, but it is 'soft' support as nothing is really clamped.

Once you appreciate how bad the choice of an open cell foam box was, I can't see a better solution than supporting the pump around its center with a Neoprene closed cell foam band not in contact with the floor. This allows free airflow over most of the pump, motor and solenoids and more than the closed box. Each solenoids when active can dissipate up to 10 watts.

Your roof pump and lines would be better cooled but they are more exposed in a place you don't often go. If you store loose tools under the trunk tray you should keep them secure and not rattling about. When removing the spare wheel and tools you should be aware there is less protection around the pump and take more care.
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