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Old 09-21-2019, 11:15 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyG View Post
Further update....

Volks Works in Leeds have managed to get Auto Protect to pay out on my timing chain! They were directed to a really awful buggy portal for entering my case but I think with the help of supporting fault codes it's been accepted.
Good news, well done for persisting.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:44 PM   #27
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I was just informed by VW that my warranty was extended on the timing chain and associated parts until 4/11/2022, so I should not be concerned with it. If there should be any type of failure of the chain or associated parts by 4/11/2022 or 100,000 miles, it would be covered by VW.
I should mention, that if I am still around and still have the EOS at that time, I would likely have that part examined and replaced.
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Old 09-27-2019, 12:37 AM   #28
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Can someone tell me what model years are not affected by the tensioner problem?

Thanks,

Tony
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Old 09-28-2019, 03:45 AM   #29
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In the US, it affected the 2.0L TSI engines up through about mid 2012. We had a 2012 Tiguan and there were pretty good write-ups about it on the Vortex forum. If I remember correctly the original design was faulty so VW redesigned at least once, but those were faulty as well. I’m not sure of the timeline for that first redesign(s). However, VW was aware of the continuing problem so they redesigned it a final time. Depending on the source quoted, this latest redesign was incorporated into engines built in the Dec 2011/Jan 2012 timeframe. Since the tensioner issue spanned many models, the rollout was somewhat synchronized across the company. Everything I’ve ever read says that by 2013, all TSI 2.0 liter engines had had the updated part. So if you’re looking for a line were everything is “safe”, then it starts with the 2013 model year. Anything before 2012 for sure has the old part(s), which makes 2012 the “questionable year”. You should be able to find you build dates on one of the door post stickers, but you really have to rely VW to tell you when specific models got the updated part. As we have discussed here, there are visual differences between the tensioners and you or your trusty VW mechanic can pull the timing chain cover inspection plug to see which tensioner your 2012 has or if your pre-2012 has been updated.
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Old 09-28-2019, 09:51 AM   #30
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Quote:
As we have discussed here, there are visual differences between the tensioners and you or your trusty VW mechanic can pull the timing chain cover inspection plug to see which tensioner your 2012 has or if your pre-2012 has been updated.
I think that is the only advice for such a critical engine component which answers all questions and doesn't rely on matching up records or recall dates when vehicles could slip through without modification. In some cases, a timing chain may have been replaced during a previous ownership (albeit not with the latest best part?) so records may suggest it is o.k, when 'eyes on' confirms the truth.
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Old 09-28-2019, 01:24 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by JonnyG View Post
Hey all, got a bit of a situation with my 2011 2.0 TSI Eos, from searching the forum all the previous threads seem to point towards getting it fixed ASAP, the problem is how.

I bought the car 6 months ago from a non main dealer, the service book shows it has always been serviced at VW by both its previous owners, until its last one at the place where I bought it.

There's the distinct timing chain rattle when revving it in neutral, when slowing down and when starting the car, a local VW specialist is almost certain judging by the age that it has the dodgy tensioner fitted.

I have 6 months warranty left with Auto Protect, but confirmed via a phone call with them yesterday if the issue is deemed to be wear and tear, the repair will not be covered. The VW specialist also says from his experience, questions such as "how did the car get to you?" will be asked and when answered with "it was driven here. " The case will be closed.

I've explained the situation in an email to the manager of the garage where I bought it yesterday, but am yet to get a reply.

I've decided to not drive the car and use my work van for now as there were 3 engine timing faults logged when I went to have this looked at and I've experienced the car juddering and engine light coming on when this happens.

This whole issue feels distinctly unfair when customers in the US are being reimbursed for the exact problem I have. Does anyone have any good advice on how to proceed? I simply can't afford the £780 I've been quoted to have this fixed on a car I paid £6200 for only 6 months ago.
U.S. Have a 2012 LUX, heard about the issue 18 months ago, searched US sites and found the issues. Since the engine is an interference engine, meaning valves and pistons will hit. I talked w technicians from 2 dealerships, both had catastrophic motors out of cars to be rebuilt for about $5K US. I chose to replace the tensioner for about $2K- because the repair was done at MY PLACE and TIME vs the failure happening in middle of some state on a trip at 11:30 p.m. that I did not control.
When the recall in the US occurred, I submitted my repair claim and was paid back in full.
Choice is yours.
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Old 09-28-2019, 03:43 PM   #32
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When the recall in the US occurred, I submitted my repair claim and was paid back in full.
Choice is yours.
A good decision and good result for you.

But others (and those not in US) may be wondering if they spent 2k at the Stealer, will their repair claim be rejected afterwards because it wasn't a repair, but preventative work based on your decision to avoid a catastrophic failure and get peace of mind? I can imagine warranty insurance not agreeing a claim. At the time, if you were asking a genuine V.W Stealer to do it, would the work and parts cost have been pre-authorised?

A DIY maintainer like myself is in a different position. The money risk only runs to the cost of parts which may not be recovered because V.W would say work had to be done by (their) expensive and competent workshop and they keep the old parts evidence for their back claim.

As a DIYer I would try the first route of inspection and confirmation by V.W and getting V.W to pay for and do the work? But if that was going to be a long drawn out fight, I'd just buy the new parts, know what was put back and do it myself. I can't believe the parts or access would be hard or hugely expensive? What price the parts somebody?

PS: I'm glad mine is a quiet toothed cam belt.
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Old 09-30-2019, 12:31 AM   #33
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In the US, Deutsche Autoparts sells a kit to do the job. $300.00

https://www.shopdap.com/tsi-timing-c...ice-kit-1.html

Access is reportedly tricky, but the replacement procedure is said to be well within the capabilities of the average home mechanic with the correct tools. I think most people overthink it (sort of like the thought of tearing into a manual transmission), but once you’re into the job, then it’s probably not that bad. If I recall correctly your need to schedule a full day to do it.
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:43 PM   #34
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In the US, Deutsche Autoparts sells a kit to do the job. $300.00
IMHO for me it would be a no-brainer not to replace it for absolute peace of mind. I've spent as much as that on rotors, brake pads and filters!

I suppose the next question for the non-DIYer would be what would the local non-V.W independent with a 4 post ramp and tools charge to fit it? It should be for those asking the questions to take it further, or sit back hoping a bad event doesn't happen to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAdSyBRHOPs

I've added the Youtube link and will make some general comments about it, even though I don't have a chain:

The timing chain tensioner is a small but critical engine part and V.W seem to have had a few goes at solving the problem judging by the version releases.

The tensioner is of the oil pressure piston and ratchet type. When it is first fitted and the ratchet tensioned slipper pulled out, oil pressure will progressively maintain tension by pushing the piston to the next ratchet step as the chain and sprockets wear (slowly). Self adjusting brakes work this way. The design should NEVER allow the ratchet to reverse or jump back steps and always moves one way. Removing a chain would involve releasing the ratchet pawl and pushing back the tension slipper to slacken the chain.

These are the common problems you can get with this kind of tensioner; After a high mileage the slipper held against the chain can wear, oil pressure can be lost due to a blockage or poor piston seal. In both cases the chain should not lose full tension because the ratchet should never go backwards, although any future chain wear will not be correctly compensated and will get noisy. A tooth jump requires quite a lot of slackness which occurs on the back slope of a chain run and I think this is more likely from a tensioner whose ratchet went backwards than one which stuck and stopped moving forwards? For those hypothesising on how you might encourage an engine with a failed tensioner to grenade, it will be higher revolutions or faulty misfiring cylinders (a couple of spark plugs disconnected or fouled) but also starting if there was any possibility of a misfire and reverse rotation of the engine. In the last example the slack chain on the down slope can then easily jumps camshaft sprocket teeth.

A design problem which allows the ratchet to go backwards is a disaster. It appears in the video to be caused by a spring clip which fails to retain the ratchet pawl? Given that V.W seem to have had more than one attempt to get this right, I might be tempted to do something else to the tensioner and make this critical pawl part more permanent in the assembly. The video doesn't explain where the tensioner parts might end up if they are found on inspection to be missing.

The video explains that removal of the timing cover can be hard as V.W have used a polyurethane (PU) sealing adhesive and there is every chance of deforming it when it would no longer seal. I have met PU adhesive fitting a windshield, it is tough and hard to remove. The only way might be using a 'cheese wire' pulled around the edges of the cover. If you tried this and could thoroughly clean off the PU, you might only need the tensioner?

V.W obviously intended the timing cover to be sealed for life. This isn't bad because timing covers are notorious for engine oil leaks. There could be another reason if they use the timing cover to distribute high pressure oil. Check before considering Permatex which would not have the same strength. I think trying a cheese wire first to cut the PE seal and reuse the cover is worth a try because then you would only need an improved tensioner, sealer and the alignment tool.

It would be helpful for anybody here doing their own timing chain DIY upgrade to share their procedure with others?
.

Last edited by voxmagna; 10-03-2019 at 10:42 AM. Reason: YouTube link and comments added
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Old 10-04-2019, 02:23 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna View Post
IMHO for me it would be a no-brainer not to replace it for absolute peace of mind. I've spent as much as that on rotors, brake pads and filters!

I suppose the next question for the non-DIYer would be what would the local non-V.W independent with a 4 post ramp and tools charge to fit it? It should be for those asking the questions to take it further, or sit back hoping a bad event doesn't happen to them.

.
I can say that in New Hampshire, in early 2017, the dealers quoted $1700-$1800, and a local VW shop (highly rated on VWvortex) charged $1100.
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Old 10-05-2019, 10:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxmagna View Post
For those hypothesising on how you might encourage an engine with a failed tensioner to grenade, it will be higher revolutions or faulty misfiring cylinders (a couple of spark plugs disconnected or fouled) but also starting if there was any possibility of a misfire and reverse rotation of the engine. In the last example the slack chain on the down slope can then easily jumps camshaft sprocket teeth
If you want a litany of descriptions for failure, then Vortex will satisfy the need, but Voxís last example might be the one to get more attention. I read a couple of posts over there where folks theorize the following:

Tensioner teeth fail resulting in a reduction of tensioner pressure. This can happen either at start-up or when the engine is running, but as long as the engine is running, then it likely wonít cause a problem because the oil pressure keeps the tensioner plunger in place. When the engine is shut off, oil pressure drops suddenly releasing pressure on the back side of the tensioner plunger causing slack on the back side of the chain. At the same time, a piston stops near the top of itís compression stroke causing a slight reverse rotation of the crankshaft as things equilibrate. It is at that moment that a camshaft tooth jumps. I donít think anyone knows how fast all of this occurs, but my guess is that it happens within a minute or two. What is important is that at this point there is no damage because nothing is moving. However, when the unsuspecting owner restarts the car, mayhem ensues. The first rotation of the starter results in a piston smacking a valve. The valve bends slightly and it no longer seats correctly. Compression in that cylinder is immediately lost, followed by perhaps the same sequence on another cylinder. The engine may fire on the good cylinders or it may simply start turning over faster without firing as a result of the compression loss and the lack of vacuum to pull in the fuel/air charge, especially if more than one cylinder is affected.

That might not sound like a spectacular grenade, but the damage is definitely done.
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Old 10-06-2019, 10:27 AM   #37
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I would feel more confident if the tensioner was designed with a locking pin or other reliable device which was set when the chain was installed and could be removed when sufficient slack was needed to replace the chain. A decent locking device (not a puny spring clip) would be failsafe if oil pressure was low, the ratchet pawl lost tension or the ratchet teeth themselves failed? It could even be a pin set behind the slipper?

Usually it's the slipper holding tension on the chain that is most likely to wear (slowly) and I suspect they only need a wide range on the ratchet to allow the chain to be lifted off the sprockets. I'm sure this could be doable without waiting for V.W to get this critical part right with the worry and uncertainty it causes?
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:36 AM   #38
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The current sold tensioners are good, they do not fail anymore. But it took like 3 designs before they hit it
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Old 10-11-2019, 12:10 PM   #39
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Lets see some detailed photos from somebody that bought one or has had it in their engine for 100k miles and I might be more confident.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:46 AM   #40
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Well, I’m one of them. I’ll look into the photos and post them. I’ve not done 100000 yet, but almost 70000 and it is still very good (paying lots of attention to it!)
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:26 AM   #41
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Here are 2 photos. In one you see the failed tensioner (just above the middle on the left). In the second you see how much slag the main chain had on the cam. In fact there are (I think) 3 chains.
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File Type: jpg foto (17).JPG (112.5 KB, 14 views)
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:10 AM   #42
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There are a lot of strong chains which don't look like they would be the first thing to wear? Which only leaves the slippers and tensioners to wear or go bad.

Is the timing cover and timing parts accessible from one side, or does the engine have to be lifted or lowered? If its the V.W EA888 engine, then it's a 16 valve double overhead cam with a more complex gear and chain drive using 3 chains? With 4 valves per pot, valve damage repairs could be more expensive if the tensioner fails and the chain jumps.
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Old 10-13-2019, 04:58 PM   #43
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Well if anyone is in any doubt about being pro active and getting the faulty timing chain tensioner replaced, my wife’s EOS has just suffered a catastrophic engine failure as a result of a faulty tensioner.
She only went to the local shop and back, parked the car on the drive and the engine has not started since. I paid for an independent assessment of the damage to make sure it was the tensioner and with the head removed, the tensioner has failed causing damage to 8 valves, camshaft has twisted, damage to pistons with estimated cost of engine rebuild at £3,000 - £3,500, god only knows what could have happened if she had been on the motorway at 70 mph.
The car is a 2009 EOS with the 2.0 TSI Petrol engine, still only done just over 41.000 miles and bought at 38,000 miles 7 months before the failure, it had 1 previous lady owner and a service history and you would think a car with a timing chain rather than a belt would almost be bulletproof.
You are all aware that the only reason VW paid up for this fault in America was because they lost the case in court and then recalled the cars and paid out compensation, as recent as 2018 my 2009 EOS would have been recalled in USA but over in the good old UK it appears that they cannot do the decent thing and treat all owners alike wherever they bought the car.
I have phoned the head office in Milton Keynes and they pretend not to know about this common failure or what’s happened in America, they offered no goodwill just an offer that if I get the car to a local VW dealership at my expense they will look at it(again at my expense) and at their usual expensive dealership rates with no guarantee of any good will at the end of it.
I had 3 months warranty with the car from the seller who was not a VW dealer, it failed after only 7 months of ownership and the trading standards say I have a case against them so that is the road I am currently travelling as how can I take on the might of VW who are the real culprits, it needs numerous owners coming forward with a joint case as happened in America
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:45 PM   #44
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I am sorry for you, trebor, and your wife! It is almost the same story as mine. Mine failed in 2014. Also it did not want to start. I was a little lucky in that the pistons were not damaged, so it was only a head rebuild. But we also decided to put all new chains, new chain supports, new cams, etc in, next to the valves.
The engine was not lifted or taken out of the car. The chains were replaced from the right side, behind the wheel arch.
Total cost was 3100 euri. The work was done by an independent shop, specialized in Audi, but supporting all brands. They had all the right tooling for the job (including VCDS). Notice that most of the engine is Audi - that brand is everywhere on the components.

The chains are also of a new design, the older ones were too easy to stretch. On the 3,2 engines with chains there is a massive report on the internet stating aswell that chains could also break, due to weaknesses in the chains because the maker brand is pressed in!!! And: because of all environmental stuff, it is really necessary to always run these engines to normal working temperature.
However I did never found a statement on the 2,0 engines for breaking of chains.

Failure of the tensioner is really as stated before: during start and stop of the engine, when there is no oil pressure and the chain may/can slam/slatter.
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Old 10-14-2019, 12:36 AM   #45
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All this is sad because a well made chain timing drive system should not be a service item or cause failure during the life of the engine, in my head I'm thinking 150-200k miles? When problems surface which could be design related, owners are right to be worried and smell rats because engine fixes at dealership level are only going to be within their competence and budgetted costs. I don't expect dealerships to get involved with cyl. head and internal engine repairs because these days their approach seems to be to fit fully assembled full or half engines so they get the damaged parts back for analysis? Therefore, a proven and life tested chain tensioner replacement is what I would expect but it shouldn't take more than one go or beta versions to get it right.

I had a similar problem to this some years ago and the only solution I was happy with came from a race tuning specialist, not the manufacturer modification bulletin.

Batjes, I couldn't make it out on your photos, but with 3 chains, is there more than one hydraulic tensioner? I'm more used to V6 engines with twin cams on top and a single chain running across and down to the crank sprocket.
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:50 PM   #46
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There are 2 hydrolic tensioners. One for the cam and one for the balancer. You can just see the 3 chains on the photo. At the bottom of the photo is the crank, with on the outside the oil pump (spring loaded), the middle is the cam chain (hydrolic tensioner loaded - at the left) and the inside one the balancer axes (also tensioner loaded). The balancers (2 of them?) run at half speed of the crank, which explains why that tooth wheel is so large. The balancer tensioner is never a problem as these axes run easy).
As you see there are lots of supports for the chains (how could a chain even skip a tooth with so much guidance - but it does).
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Old 10-14-2019, 06:05 PM   #47
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Here are 3 more photos, showing the busted valves, a detail of the chain and the cams from above.
And you are quite right: well designed chains should last forever. Early engines did have tooth meshed wheels or chains. And those engines could run up to a million km/miles. But nowadays, everything is light weighted and maybe/clearly not strong enough.
Notice however that all manufacturers have the same problems, including the asian ones (and I know that from friends).
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Old 10-14-2019, 08:34 PM   #48
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OK, thanks I understand now. The impression I got from the 'upgrade and stay calm' repair kits was there was only one hydraulic tensioner, but if two are similar, the chances of a failure due to design just go up.

Quote:
But nowadays, everything is light weighted and maybe/clearly not strong enough
But these are double row chains and sprockets so I'm thinking: Older engines running for ever on their chains tended to just go noisy and wear the slippers. I can remember when an overhaul kit was just a new chain and slipper guides at around 120k miles - but they didn't have oil pressure hydraulic tensioners. They were a simple mechanical sprung loaded ratchet, designed to never go backwards. They would tension themselves to the nearest ratchet click with engine off. But the mechanism would be larger than the piston tensioner V.W use. My Tdi (8V) has a belt with a mechanical spring belt tensioner designed into the idler bearing roller. It's a one direction trip needing a procedure to release spring tension and remove the belt.

But things are different now with 16 valve engine designs with more camshafts and valves to move. When I've torn down engines and had to rotate camshafts to check timing setup, I've been amazed how much torque is needed to turn them. With all the chain and double sprocket complexity your photos show, they can't be that far away from using a hard gear train if they can get them quiet?

Chain technology is interesting to research although it seems as though the tensioner is the main problem here.. The cheapest (worst) chains for power transmission have plain rivetted static rollers The best designed chains use hardened rollers in links that can rotate. This allows them to glide up and down sprocket teeth with reduced friction and noise for longer life and reliability. I don't know what V.W use here or whether Mercedes do it better. V.W now have timing chains in a wide range of engines and it doesn't seem to matter if you have the 1.4l, 2.0l or 3.2l, some owners report tensioner failure for all of them.

Mickjane late of owning EOS has a lot of engine workshop experience if he's still about?
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Old 10-14-2019, 09:05 PM   #49
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Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply guys, below all worth looking at


https://timingchainlitigation.com/

https://www.eeuroparts.com/blog/9623...st-know-guide/

https://youtu.be/qAdSyBRHOPs
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Old 10-14-2019, 09:09 PM   #50
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Seen a few VW engines with timing chain jump one tooth and no damage, but as we are more of an old classic car Speacalist we tend to farm out that sort of work to a VAG indie garage nowadays.

Mick


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