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Discussion Starter #1
Summary
This job was a right pain, as it was not obvious where the leak was coming from and it took most of the weekend of testing and searching for a leak before a could find where the water was getting in. The temporary fix took about 30 mins and about another hour of re-testing
Fyi – vox’s A pillar tube fix had been completed so I didn’t suspect a leak in this area

Symptoms
Condensation on the inside of the front and rear glass is not too unusual in the UK around this time of year but there seemed to be more the normal given the weather conditions.
At this point I was thinking that water was getting in somewhere.

Approach
Checking round the usual leak spots and all seemed dry. I had cleaned, lubricated all the seals and cleaned the drain tubes as part of my winter prep in September as well.
Next, I checked all the carpets and the front driver’s side was sopping wet, all other areas were dry. So, I’d found where the water was ending up but no evidence / water stains / drips to give me clue as there where is the water was getting in.
Next, I used a hose pipe on a low setting to test all areas / seals on the driver’s side one by one until I spotted a leak right between the rubber seal for the wing mirror and the A pillar seal. It was a very slight leak and there would be no evidence of where the water was getting past the seal that you could see until you opened the door. I checked the window alignment as per factory spec and had a little adjustment to play with. But not much. However much I tried to adjust the glass it made no difference. I cleaned all the seals again and re-lube. still leaked, I was very small but enough to look into a fix

Problem
I took a closer look at the A pillar seal, and noticed that the seal had an indent in it where the wing mirror seal sits. What I think has happened is that over the years the seal has been pushed in by the other seal meaning there is no longer a good flat seal between the two surfaces. This has meant the surface of the wing mirror seal had worn away in places and was now smooth and shiny at the point noted in the pic. This meant water would leak past the seal and into the car

Temporary Fix.

I had some water proof external tape that I placed over the worn area on the wing mirror seal. Before I cut some tape a removed the seal lube with some meths to make sure the tape would stick
I have seen a post about re-applying the coating but the temp needs the be over 15 degrees, not much hope of that this time of year.
The tape seems to be working and keeping the water out. I have also ordered a new seal which will take a while to turn up. If I get a free weekend, I will remove the old one and refit the new one. However, it looks like the door card and glass will need to come off so need a full day with no rain ….

See pics for more info
Question
How often are people applying seal lube as think mine have got dry at some point and the seal surface has been worn away
 

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Hi Rob, I know that seal is fiddly because I've had mine out a few times when I've had the door mirrors off. The long section that goes vertically downwards can get twisted in the steel channel if you don't watch for it when putting it back.
I krytox my roof seals twice a year. In U.K for me that means the start of Spring and then Autumn. I keep an eydropper bottle of Krytox in the glove box for a very hot summer when I might need to touch up the roof top and sunroof seals. But now all my seals have non-V.W approved silicone tube inserted inside, they stay more round than flat oval. When seals don't easily slide against each other, they start to pucker up after a roof close, which is the warning sign to look out for.

MY07 sits outside 24/7 and I have no condensation now unless I've got in and out with wet shoes and clothes. Reducing cabin condensation wasn't easy. I accept a fine mist fogging on the rear window caused by damp interior which the electric defogger can deal with, but when water starts dripping off the sunroof and side windows, I know there's a leak or retained water somewhere to find. Following a lot of work into condensation, I discovered a few traps and 'absorbers' of water in places you would never think to look. Condensation inside the EOS isn't always caused by water you can see with a hosepipe test because in some cases the water is already there.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi Rob, I know that seal is fiddly because I've had mine out a few times when I've had the door mirrors off. The long section that goes vertically downwards can get twisted in the steel channel if you don't watch for it when putting it back.
I krytox my roof seals twice a year. In U.K for me that means the start of Spring and then Autumn. I keep an eydropper bottle of Krytox in the glove box for a very hot summer when I might need to touch up the roof top and sunroof seals. But now all my seals have non-V.W approved silicone tube inserted inside, they stay more round than flat oval. When seals don't easily slide against each other, they start to pucker up after a roof close, which is the warning sign to look out for.

MY07 sits outside 24/7 and I have no condensation now unless I've got in and out with wet shoes and clothes. Reducing cabin condensation wasn't easy. I accept a fine mist fogging on the rear window caused by damp interior which the electric defogger can deal with, but when water starts dripping off the sunroof and side windows, I know there's a leak or retained water somewhere to find. Following a lot of work into condensation, I discovered a few traps and 'absorbers' of water in places you would never think to look. Condensation inside the EOS isn't always caused by water you can see with a hosepipe test because in some cases the water is already there.
Hi Vox

Same for me as in twice a year for the seal lube . Did you have to remove the outer and inner door cards and the glass to refit the wing mirror seal ?

On a side note we have had a fair few wet days here in the north west (UK) recently and the reversing sensor has played up again which posted about a while back . I think this can wait till it gets a bit warm ...

Regards
 

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Did you have to remove the outer and inner door cards and the glass to refit the wing mirror seal ?
I can't remember. Certainly the door cards because you need to feel the seal and shine in a flashlight as you push it into the vertical channel. There's one nut inside holding on the mirror mount, a fiddly connector for the tweeter wire and some clips around its case you have to be careful with. I think the glass must be down to undo the mirror mount nut and up to get to the vertical channel fastener, but if you remove the mount with the vertical steel seal channel, you can re-assemble the seal, lube it then slide it down with the front edge of the glass inside the seal. I've been in mine a few times and to operate the windows you have to temporarily reconnect the fragile door controls connector. I got fed up with the short wire (drivers side) and damage risk to the connector. I spent a couple of hours with heatshrink solder splicing and extending each wire by about 250mm.

The reversing sensor could be a lot easier to look at. But remove the trunk right side inner lining to find the sensor module. This location is a mirror of the opposite side where they put the roof control module and water can run back over the rear wheel arches, under the liner and get soaked up by their water absorbing sponge. This is one of the 'hidden' water traps.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Update
Finally got the part from VW, a new wing mirror seal, see pic 1 for part number /description (£36). It been too cold to take the car door apart and it’s also been raining most days as well, so the job is on hold at the moment as I have to work outside.

I’ve had a look at the part and it looks like it has been redesigned as there is an extra channel in it to direct water away from the car interior, see pic 2.

Temporary tape fix update

It kept some water out, but there is still some water that gets past and leaks into the car if we’ve had heavy rain. So not a full fix ..

When it gets a bit warmer and its dry I will post a full how to ..

Happy New year everyone in EOS land ….

pic s to follow
 

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I’ve had a look at the part and it looks like it has been redesigned as there is an extra channel in it to direct water away from the car interior, see pic 2.
Good find Rob.
I looked at MY07, I've never changed them and I have a channel which runs on the inside just above the tweeter? You said an extra channel so am I looking for 2? IMHO the important thing about that seal is it makes contact with the front section of the door seal on the body. That part can go stiff and I always keep mine lubed with Krytox to make it soft.

The channels are only there as last resort, which I suspect is to catch small amounts of internal condensation off the glass and not stop rain entering from outside? Hold a PostIt note on the inside of the seal, close the door and see if you have grip all around? If you have replaced doors or adjusted the hinges, the door could be set further out from the frame seal and if it's gone hard, won't make contact.

22914
 

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pics ....
Rob,

Thanks for the heads up - I have been frustrated by a very small A pillar water leak in SWMBO's MY09 Eos that has defied rectification despite following the usual rectification measures and I will check this location as I haven't given it any attention as a possible source of the leak.
 

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SS, I've marked my photo showing the line of contact with the frame seal when the door is closed. I don't know what materials they are using, but on MY07 they are quite stiff and not very pliable like the rest of the frame seal? If that contact is good rain shouldn't get past. The channels can't take much water which is why I think they are there to help drain internal condensation?

22915
 

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SS, I've marked my photo showing the line of contact with the frame seal when the door is closed. I don't know what materials they are using, but on MY07 they are quite stiff and not very pliable like the rest of the frame seal? If that contact is good rain shouldn't get past. The channels can't take much water which is why I think they are there to help drain internal condensation?

View attachment 22915
Thanks Vox,

Will be checking this out over the weekend - I think the cause is in this area as I have checked all the other usual suspects.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Good find Rob.
I looked at MY07, I've never changed them and I have a channel which runs on the inside just above the tweeter? You said an extra channel so am I looking for 2? IMHO the important thing about that seal is it makes contact with the front section of the door seal on the body. That part can go stiff and I always keep mine lubed with Krytox to make it soft.

The channels are only there as last resort, which I suspect is to catch small amounts of internal condensation off the glass and not stop rain entering from outside? Hold a PostIt note on the inside of the seal, close the door and see if you have grip all around? If you have replaced doors or adjusted the hinges, the door could be set further out from the frame seal and if it's gone hard, won't make contact.

View attachment 22914
Hi Vox,

Interesting point re channel and post it note . I think i have two issues , one is the seal surface has rubbed off meaning that the lube isn't staying in place and doing its job, and second is how the glass fits into the seal when the window is closed (if viewed from the outside). i was trying to get a pic this morning to show what i mean but the car is covered in snow and ice .

If you look at the attached , not the best pic ,when the window is closed there is a very slight bulge in the seal on the outside of the glass which forms a D shape if that makes sense . It's only small but i think i means water doesn't drain away as it should and gets past the seal

I will try and get a better pic later when it warms up a bit , but if you could get a pic of yours that would be great so i can compare? . No rush as isn't going to get much warmer any time soon

As a side note , your seal looks like its in the same condition as mine , but mine has no extra channel , as in same sections look to be a darker colour , i.e the special surface on the rubber seal has rubbed off , is this the case , or just how the camera has picked it up ?

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hi Vox,

Interesting point re channel and post it note . I think i have two issues , one is the seal surface has rubbed off meaning that the lube isn't staying in place and doing its job, and second is how the glass fits into the seal when the window is closed (if viewed from the outside). i was trying to get a pic this morning to show what i mean but the car is covered in snow and ice .

If you look at the attached , not the best pic ,when the window is closed there is a very slight bulge in the seal on the outside of the glass which forms a D shape if that makes sense . It's only small but i think i means water doesn't drain away as it should and gets past the seal

I will try and get a better pic later when it warms up a bit , but if you could get a pic of yours that would be great so i can compare? . No rush as isn't going to get much warmer any time soon

As a side note , your seal looks like its in the same condition as mine , but mine has no extra channel , as in same sections look to be a darker colour , i.e the special surface on the rubber seal has rubbed off , is this the case , or just how the camera has picked it up ?

Thanks
Hi Again ,
sorry just re-read your post, as to the question of two channels ,my original seal has no channel. The new part i got has a channel and is the same as your latest pic . so it looks like a redesign happened at some point around 2007 at a guess.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Update
As promised pics attached, so hope this makes a bit more sense now .....

Seal_a - window open door closed . you can also see the water proof tape I’ve been messing around with

Seal_b - door and window closed . picture is zoomed in

Seal_c – door and window closed . picture is not zoomed in .

A_pillar_seal – shows the area where the seal is slightly pushed in . its not picked up by the camera , but you can feel it with your fingers

I did also notice that there is a small almost “negative image” of the door seal in the A pillar seal , where the two seals meet i.e over the years the A pillar seal has been repeatably pushed in so a very small indent can be felt if you rub your hand along the length of the deal . see A_pillar_seal pic

Do your cars have the same indent in the A pillar, it's only slight , but you can feel it ?

Any pics of your cars for ref would be great

Regards
 

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Hi Rob. I'm not sure what photo 7 is showing me? When the door is open the glass is dropped and there's a gap between the glass edge and the wrap over seal on the corner as you would expect. But when the glass is raised the glass edge should fit nicely into the curved profile of the seal. I think that means two things. The glass must hit the top seal hard and stay there with some remaining tension. It won't do that if the regulator wires have stretched and will tend to drop after driving over bumps. Check with the flat of your hand there is good tension on a raised window glass.The hollow wrap over seal the glass moves into when raised shouldn't have any gaps at the top. Get some thin paper, wrap it over the leading edge of the glass then fully raise the glass into the seal and see if there's friction when you pull it back? Irrespective of where the door hinges are set, the door glass will always stop under the top seal and should be sitting level with the marks at each end of the glass. Level is important because if the glass is tilted, it's front edge won't make good contact along the profile of the front U shaped seal. I don't know if there's any 'wiggle room' for the height of that seal? Sometimes these seals may fit into slots and grooves and you can move them a little. I would look for good contact along the glass edge and inside the seal when it reaches the top.

Yes I do find the A pillar seal a bit hard and bumpy, even though I give it Krytox. I might try some gentle warming with a hair dryer but I don't yet have any serious leaks there. As I mentioned, that seal looks and feels more like a plastic composition than soft pliable rubber?

The vertical seals can add extra friction to the glass. The tension produced in the regulator wire and the top glass edge as it hits the roof seal add together to tell the motor to stall. You really want the least additional friction from the side runners to get the most grab tension on the top seal, then the glass won't tend to drop (unless the regulator wires have stretched). I added Krytox to the front vertical seal before putting it back. Initially you get Krytox smearing on the edge of the glass, but it can be wiped off the glass you can see.

I took a closer look at the sealing on that corner which doesn't seem brilliant. On MY07 the curved U seal fitted into the mirror mount just clears the A piller seal as the door is closed and appears to just go into an inverted U void formed by that seal. As my door hinges are set at the mo. there is the same small gap of about 0.5mm as the door closes and there is a smaller gap (in places) between the edges of the mirror mount and the A pillar seal. I wouldn't say this could stop 100mph rain driving horizontally at the side mirror, but water would have to go through some twists and turns, then get past any gaps between the mirror mount and A pillar seals? I would expect any leaks around these mirror mounts to come from water falling off the roof, then tracking along the glass and over the front edge if it isn't in good contact with the seal in the mount?

Now I shall start thinking like a German: The design of the window seal relies on the window regulator pushing the glass into the seal, stalling the motor and leaving the glass in tension. They aren't going to do something different on the front edges for the mirror mounts. My theory is the glass has to sit level and square at the top so its edges make contact with the roof seal all the way along, including the section at the front. Even though the front edge of the glass sits inside a U shaped seal, I think this is more of a cover than a seal and the glass edge and thin cover gets pushed hard up against the inner seal under tension after the door is closed. I think what happens to gaps between the mirror mount and anywhere else is less important? I would look for reasons why the front edges of the glass do not sit with tension all the way around to create a primary seal? I already mentioned door hinge alignment (don't go there!) but the glass can be adjusted to sit level with the top seal when the marks should align. Do the paper test along the top edge towards the front. If there's a gap at the top front edge tilting it downwards, the edges near the mirror mount won't make contact with the A pillar seal. Neither will they make contact if that seal is distorted. Use the engraved glass levelling marks as 'Guidance'. With a brand new seal all the way around I'm sure they work. But if glass levelling has been a bit out for a while, the seal will have become deformed. IMHO what matters is even contact under tension between the top and front edges of the glass, even if the marks say otherwise.

You probably know the glass levelling adjusters can be adjusted together? You might think this is how you can increase tension on the raised glass when it hits the roof seal or change the glass height. However, it doesn't because it is tension after the motor stall that stops the glass and the regulator mechanism with no play should hold it there. It occurs to me that if both adjusters were set too low but the glass was level the motor might stall at the top due to a stop in the regulator, not when there's tension on the seal. I've never found much written about moving both regulator adjusters together. I set mine at mid point then only move one side slightly to correct for any glass tilt. If I had to check this after assembly, I would set the adjuster at one end, count the number of turns to the end stop and turn it back turns divided by 2 (without damaging the hidden key!!).
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hi Vox

Sorry I think I've missed a picture out .I will re do it in rhe morning

I've attached one via my phone but it's not the best and needs to be rotated 90 degress clockwise
It's a bit hard to explain, but will give it a go ..

If you where standing at the drivers side door with the door and window closed and if you looked closely at where the glass , wing mirror and a pillar seal meat , does the wing mirror seal have a slight bulge to it on the outside of the glass ?
I would have guessed the glass would sit with the seal nearly overlapping it with no bulge in it on the outside face of the seal

Will try and get a better picture tomorrow which help explain

Thanks for the suggestions....


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Taking good pictures of black or gray seals to show details is quite difficult. I tried and failed for the headlining. I've given you a few ideas to think through in my edited post. If we are talking about the same thing, this is a night flash photo of the top corner of MY07 mirror mount with the door closed, car locked and glass raised. I see nothing unusual and it looks as tight as a ducks a*se.

Look how closely the top edge of the mirror mount aligns with the A pillar seal. The glass with its U shaped cover over the edge is sat up inside the seal. I can't see how much contact there is or whether it gets stretched by the raised glass, but I have no leaks. If the door height or something with the mirror mount is wrong, I would either expect a big gap there or the mount would hit the seal as the door was closed. Thinking like a German seems the best way to understand this? Check your door shut gaps and compare with the other side? I have to revisit my door hinge alignment in good weather and the near zero gap at the top of the mirror mount may change.

22920
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi Vox

Happy new year to you and your family.. Thanks for the pic . I think you might be on to something here I.e gap between wing mirror housing and a pillar seal as yours looks a lot smaller gap with no d shape seal bulge . I have replaced the wing mirror and window regulator on this side and might have got something out of alignment.

The wing mirror seal may have stretched over the years each time the window was open or closed .

Anyone else got a pic (same as seal_c) they could share for reference ?

Again no rush just when ever as there doesn't seem to be a break in the weather anytime soon

Thanks again

Rob

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Happy New Year and greetings also. It's not a place where I would expect huge amounts of water, so best to leave for better weather. I don't think you can get the mount back incorrectly and I can't remember any oval holes for adjustment of its position.

I was thinking in a light bulb moment about how V.W had poorly designed sealing for the EOS window glasses and how they probably should have done it better. Sealing the glasses is important when large volumes of water spill over the sides (no gutters). They would have to come up with a better way of reliably doing the window drop first and keeping it dropped whenever the door was open or being opened. At the moment they only rely on the edge of each glass making even contact with the flat surface of the 'A' pillar and roof seal. What they should have done, as is done on non-cab cars, is use a seal with a 'U' channel and some depth say 8-10 mm. As the glass is raised, it enters a small flare in the seal channel opening that guides it into the seal channel about the width of the glass. For water to get past, the glass it would have to get around the channel. If the glass didn't make perfect surface contact along its edge or wasn't perfectly level, you would still get a seal. But this must rely on the window drop working better than it does, because you could not open a door with the glass sat 8-10mm inside the seal.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hi Vox,

Just what I was thinking re A pillar U shaped channel for the glass to sit in at the top . i might need to make / fashion something along those line if i can't fix the leak when i fit the new seal .Update below

Update


The weather hasn’t been great so not much progress. A couple of pic’s to hopefully give a bit more detail on the problem

Wing_mirror_leak – this shows where to water is getting past the wing mirror seal and onto the tweeter speaker cover and then the A pillar / down the back of the door card and then drips into the car. Only seems to happen at the top of the seal. New seal is still to be fitted

A_pillar_leak = this shows where the water runs once it has got past the seal. Its not massive amounts of water and you can’t see it unless you open the car and look at the A pillar seal

I’ve removed the water proof tape as it wasn’t really making much if any improvement. I then re-applied the seal lube to the wing mirror seal and got my heat gun out and on a low setting heated up the A -pillar seal / the part where it had been pushed in / deformed by the wing mirror seal.

After a few goes it seemed to remove some of the indent / where it had been deformed. Not sure if this is a perm fix or temporary so will wait and see

I was going to have a go a replacing the wing mirror seal but it started to rain again ….. #I need a bigger garage so I can work in side in the winter …..

If I got some better weather, I will post a how to in terms of replacing the re-designed wing mirror seal

Regards
 

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Sounds like some progress. We now have plenty of time in lockdown, unfortunately the weather is damn cold to be outside. There are many here who will rush out and replace seals first? There are seals on the top more exposed to sunlight U.V which could deteriate more. But on MY07, I've been in places where I've removed a seal and the rubber was nice and flexible. However, if they have been crushed unevenly, they will deform and keep a permanent 'set'. I had the unenviable task of removing both my top roof segments. I was able to easily slide the long critically important roof seals off their retaining channels. The seal was still flexible like new and I could nearly sniff the chacteristic smell of new synthetic rubber! No need to replace those.

A little trick I learned with synthetic rubber, particularly rocker and fuel tank gaskets, is to dunk the seal in a saucepan of boiling water for about 2 minutes. Often the rubber comes out like new with original flexibility and size. I've never had to replace a ribbed rubber cover gasket. I also do it with synthetic gaskets and O rings that can have contact with gasolene. When fuel parts are first assembled, there's very little fuel in contact. But when you service or dismantle they get covered in fuel or oil which causes the rubber to shrink. After 2 minutes boiling, any fuel or oil is boiled out and the gaskets return to normal size.

It's a long shot but have you had any mineral, silicone greases or oils on your seals other than Krytox, because they can change the rubber dimensions, but boiling should bring them back? Some will think lubing a seal is using something other than Krytox and will grab a tube of MS3 silicone grease if it's handy? I used to use it on water seal rubber O rings until I found out how much it changed (enlarged) the dimensions. Now I use Krytox on EOS seals and castor red grease on O rings.
 
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