Volkswagen Eos Forum banner

61 - 80 of 80 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
Me and the son was having a go with his Seat diesel as it was becoming differcult to start, hot or cold. Slight pressure on the throttle pedal helped. Connected VCDS and looked at measuring blocks and the consumption per hour was 0.2 ltr per hr. Slight adjustment on the rear cam adjustment bought it up to 0.6 ltr per hr. Starts a lot easier now, and can only assume it was due to belt ageing.
Have read about cam sensors giving same sort of fault, but didn't show up with the scan. Cam sensor is a bitch to do, unless you do at the same time as belt change, so worth considering.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Discussion Starter #62
Yea when i went and metioned to the garage about hard starting he said about the postion aensors are quite comon for causing probs but said thats usualy on twin cams...
Jst maged to suss out how to reset windows so atleast ita not gona get wet tonight.. Will take for diagnostics in morn.. See what it says.. Also code in cruise and check fuel consumption
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,798 Posts
MY07 EOS TDi is the older 8 valve BMM engine. It may not have all the latest emissions clutter to go wrong. Neither does it have a bad ECU needing a fix, giving questionable performance, future reliability problems and higher cost of ownership. :p :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Discussion Starter #65
Ok so i now have cruise control yay...
But the garage never turned up any trump codes to explain my hard starting prob :(

He said my timing was right on the limit 1.9? Limit being 2
And injector opening times..
Also he said my fuel temp was high 70+ degree's...

Does any of this mean anything to anyone?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,798 Posts
If fuel temperature is 70+ deg. Is that F or C because 70F is 21C which might be about right this time of year for a garaged car? :confused:

If the fuel temp value read out is way off what it should be, the ECU will be taking that into account when setting the fueling maps. The same is true of other engine related temperature sensors. If you rely on a garage to fix a fault then you must leave it to them to give you back a working car. If you are cheaping out on just a diagnostics scan, then you get what you pay for - a scan then any fault codes given to you. What you are not getting is the garage tech. applying knowledge and experience to use diagnostics as a tool to look at all the data and come to some intelligent conclusions. You have vcds but learning how to use it to investigate problems as opposed finding reported fault codes needs a higher level of skill. This won't be 1/2 hour labor job and will need time.

What makes you think timing is your problem anyway? Is it because you have read some numbers spat out by the computer and reached a conclusion?

All engines need fuel, air, compression and ignition (for gasoline). There are quite wide tolerances on values read out by diagnostics, even for efi engines. So why not do some basic checks first? : For diesels, check fuel rail pressure, check cylinder compressions, check all glow plugs, check fuel injector spray pattern, check battery voltage during cranking and check valve opening timings are about right There isn't one test with diagnostics in that list. :) Sounds like you will be cruising when you can get the engine to start. :confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Discussion Starter #67
It was a vw aproved garage who ran vcds.. No codes where found he effectively was stumped to be fair.. He jumped to a conclusion of fuel temp senser must be faulty.. Replace that and see what happens he said.. I basicaly said well what if it is that temp.. And even so after driving 10 mile home from work before diagnostics that dosent explain hard starting after being left as it starts a dream after 1st time.. The fuel filter housing was hot to touch so i imagine it was 70c...
So yes using vcds is a very powerful tool but wish i hadone to my disposal.. That being said susinug how to use is a nother thing...
But by the sounds of it i'd of been another 30 quid down if i was to of left it..
I'm not a mechanic.. I dont know how moden cars work or what makes what tick.. But forgive me for trying to suss my problem out.. As even this guy said fuel temp sensor, timing, fuel siphoning back... So in my eyes he was jst stabing in the dark as much as me albeit with a fancy machine
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Discussion Starter #68
I will aim to whittle through the list of tests you mentioned...
My 1st port of call will be checking glowplugs for continuity in case i was sold a set of duds.. Vw said highly unlikely... Cylinder compression test i think would be next in cards..
Injector spray pattern, battery under cranking, fuel rail pressure forgive my nievaty.. But surley if they was a prop it would be more often than once every now and then after being left...
He did mention about the injector opening Times being long i think he said.. Which led him to say about the timing.....
Basicaly go get a new timing belt see what happens...
So amother 100quid withought the fault being diagnosed....
I questioned what could be making the fuel so hot... No solid answer... Too much pressure.. Was there oil in my fuel filter housing..

I would love to hear somone give me an explanation of what events could happen to make the fuel so hot

Rather than jst i dont know what i'm doing, take it to vw garage get bumed aload of billls and prob still not get an answer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,798 Posts
You may find some useful info on diesel fuel temperature in this link:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=129259

At first it's not easy to understand why diesel fuel should be so hot but I think I have the answer: Most injection engines use a common fuel rail with fuel sitting in the injectors and continuously circulated back to the tank by the fuel pump. Unless you have some kind of North America market cold weather fuel heater fitted, the fuel will get heat from the injectors and the fuel rail is usually not far away from the exhaust manifold. The fuel pump pumping high pressure continuously will also add to the fuel temperature, particularly when tested during idling and without airflow into the engine bay. I'd hook up your vcds and see what the fuel temperature when whilst driving. Read the link because you need to know where the temperature sensor is. I would not expect temperature of fuel in the tank to be that high after the car has been stood overnight. But if the sensor is on the return from the fuel rail after a long time idling, that's possible. You don't need diagnostics to tell you the temperature is high - stick your hand on the fuel rail and the return pipes!

I was surprised you said an approved garage was using vcds, because they usually use V.W proprietary ODIS diagnostics? :confused: I think you expect computer diagnostics to find your faults and your technician is in the same mindset clutching at straws with you paying the costs. If your engine is in poor condition with high mileage, diagnostics won't tell you a lot. If your fuel pump is faulty and not holding fuel in the fuel lines after parking, it will need re priming every time. If there is air trapped in the fuel lines that hasn't been purged, you will get hard starting with no faults thrown up. All timing belts stretch which will have some (small) effect on timing. But it doesn't cost you £100 to check the timing marks and valve positions in case the belt is a tooth out?

If you have removed any parts of the fuel system, have you purged out any air that will have got in? I removed all the fuel lines from a newer VAG which refused to start. I was surprised how much extra work I did to purge the fuel lines when normally you crank these TDis over a few times and they self purge any air.

I've suggested you don't rely on computer diagnostics 100% to find your fault. Unfortunately, most dealerships use diagnostics and algorithms defined for 'guided fault finding' but they are not foolproof and sometimes you have to go back to basics, understand how a modern engine works, know how the injection management works and work sequentially through everything. If you want to ignore something because of your gut feeling you may never get a solution.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Discussion Starter #70
Thank you for a very informative reply vox :) i like your theory about fuel temp being high.. The car was stood for some time running whilst he had his laptop out.. So that could explain the heat as you say, i never felt the the fuel rail but i did feel the fuel filter housing which was hot to touch.. Will pop th bonet when i get home after jurney on motorway see if its as hot then...
When i questioned about the heat.. He said it will circulate back to the tank.. Then run through cooler on way back to filter housing.. He was unsure if eos's have coolers tho...

I'm pretty sure he's vw aproved.. Has VW plasterd on the front of the garage.. haa
When i've been reading up on the likes of this hard starting it does sound like quite a tricky one to pin point couid be a hoist of reason's..
The garage also said abiut fuel draing backb he said to crimp the supply hose or maybe the return hose to see if that solves it the problem is i never know when its going to hard start to say "yay a winner" but room for thought.. When it does hard start... I do tend to turn on the ignition(not start) and off again multiple times but it dosent seem to make a difference.. I do hear the pump kick in in the fuel tank and dosent sound like its labouring, it jst makes the same noise each time.....

Purging the fuel system has got me curious.. Obvs when i changed filters etc i jst popped the top of the fuel filter housing back on and off she went, never purged anything think fuel tank will jst fill the fuel filter housing up.. Will look more into this... If that filter housing has alot of air in there.. I suppose that will be under more preasure creating the odd high temp.. Will explain how every now and then i've felt a slight stutter when pulling away from rounderboutsb it so slight i question if it was jst me ha..

I asked the garage how much for him to check the timing he said he wont even touch it without new cambelt, costing in the region of £300..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,798 Posts
I asked the garage how much for him to check the timing he said he wont even touch it without new cambelt, costing in the region of £300.
Strange because it shouldn't cost more than an hours labor to remove the cam belt cover and check the marks are aligned. Not sure where you are going with your timing kick though. If the car once started idles reasonably smoothly and its usual rpm and rpm is smooth to 4K rpm, I wouldn't be suspecting camshaft timing. :confused:

Most fuel pump systems have built in non-return valves designed to hold fuel in the lines all the way to the injectors. At key on the electric fuel pump should prime the lines with pressure to the input of the high pressure mechanical pump which I think you can check with vcds. When you turn off the key and the fuel pump stops, the fuel rail should still hold pressure for quite a long time afterwards, possibly up to 1/2 hour but you won't be able to check residual fuel line pressure because diagnostics shuts down with the key off. You could try disconnecting the fuel pump after key on and see what vcds tells you about the pressure? Our older PD engines use the electric pump for the low part of pressurization and a mechanical fuel pump is used to reach 25,000 psi for injection. Read up on VW PD Pumpe Duse diesel engines. I'm fairly sure vcds can give quite a lot of information about the operation of the low and high pressure pumps. Be careful playing around with open fuel injectors and lines if the system is active!

If there are any air bubbles in the fuel system the fuel will not compress and reach 25,000 psi because trapped air acts like a rubber ball and compresses more than the fuel. I'm only shooting some ideas because you seem too reliant on a computer telling you if something is wrong and a garage technician that clutches at straws, hearing your input, telling you that you might be right, then sending you down the garden path to nowhere.:(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Discussion Starter #72
Still plauged by this..... 😞

Changed battery as voltage was dropping from 12 to 9 when hard starting.. No difference 😞

I plugged my donle in with the torque app... Showed i was getting 30ml+ fuel delivery, tried it manly to see if it woukd tell me fuel pressure which it never... Showed me coolant temp which seemed ok ranging from 8c-80c..
Rpm was ok 300+ when hard starting..
It some how could read hp... Which was low 105hp torque was 225, not sure how acurate these are but thought it at least directs running low on power..

So my current thought is leaky fuel injector....
Kind of ties bits together.. Low compretion=hard start, air getting in fuel system= hard start, i imagine added wear to my camshaft..
And i changed my oil fewdays ago when draining got a full washing bowl out which said it was 9L.... No way did i put 9L in there, so i i fillled it to the low level on dipstick whuch brought on low level light and after a couple of days it went out...
Water hasnt gone down or at least not 5L's worth....
So the only other liquid that could add to oil level if fuel..

I've jst added some ring rdl4 uv dye to fuel ecoecting to see it pooled round a injector or 2.... But when i popped my cam cover off it wasnt so obvious 😞...
It seemed as if all the oil had a slight green tinge to it especially round 1 and 4
So curious to know if anyone else has used this stuff.. And if oil has green tinge under normal condition?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,798 Posts
Those dyes used to be a lot more expensive. I see they do sets in different colors so you could pop some in the coolant, oil and fuel? It's also fairly common to have flourescent dye added to aircon systems because leaks are more difficult to find.When you see 2 colors in the oil with one coming from the coolant, you have big problems.

If you get garages to fix oil leaks from sump pans, timing covers and seals etc, it's probably a good idea to have dye added to the oil, then there should be no arguments if they didn't do their job properly.

Diesel fuel is easy to trace and I normally rub my finger over a suspect area and smell it? Gasoline is harder because it evaporates, but its smell should still be unique. Coolant is interesting because whilst ethylene glycol is poisonous and sweet in large amounts, they put in bitters to stop kiddies from drinking it which makes it very sensitive to taste. Of course if you are fault finding leaks in a garage all day long you wouldn't want to be doing too much taste testing! You can also put liquid samples on clean tissue and burn it. Oil and diesel burns a strong orange, coolant doesn't burn whereas gasoline is more inflammable and burns blueish, unless contaminated with oil.

Before there was Ring dyes there were eyes, ears, noses and tongues. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Discussion Starter #75
I suppose alot of the smell and taste abilities to diagnose comes down to experience... Unlike me lol...

I was hopping the dye was going to give a definitive answer but it never.. I cant say it was useless because it shine up, jst every where not pin pointing...

So the next day i thought... Well its going to hard start 1st thing, which it did.. So i popped the rocker off and got someone to crank it and see fuel ouzing out no2 injector... The car eventually started and splashe oil about but that give me enough amo to want to change injector seals... Which i had to hand 😉 i bought 4 sets a couple of days before... But reading up.. I coke to terms with 'if it aint broke, dont fix it' so i only did no2 injector... Injector came out fairly easy, jst bit of twine/rope round thebit wear it pugs into loom, pulling up by hand while wiggling left n right....
Copper crush washer was bit of a pain.. Screw driver and hamer to split them... 'softky softly'
Cleaner injector with brake cleaner..
Had 9v battery at hand to open close to clean inside but didnt fancy dismatling injector so jst greased new seals and replaced and scraped abit of carbon from round the nozzle with scalpel. Put injector back.. Changed oil.. once again..
So sunday morning expecting hard start and a belly full of anticipation.. I cranked it over and woukd you belive it no hard start.. Before i jumped for joy i thought na that cant be right thinking its only prob cos it was 11 degrees outside...
So was waiting for a colder morning...
This morning at 6am said it was 4 degrees which was low enough ti cause hard start before.. Started straight away.. Whoop! 🙂 👍
So hopefully the dragon is slayed fingers crossed..
Will give anither flush oil and filter change in a week if alls well...
Then on to changing cambelt and front shocks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,798 Posts
Me and the son was having a go with his Seat diesel as it was becoming differcult to start, hot or cold. Slight pressure on the throttle pedal helped. Connected VCDS and looked at measuring blocks and the consumption per hour was 0.2 ltr per hr. Slight adjustment on the rear cam adjustment bought it up to 0.6 ltr per hr. Starts a lot easier now, and can only assume it was due to belt ageing.
Have read about cam sensors giving same sort of fault, but didn't show up with the scan. Cam sensor is a bitch to do, unless you do at the same time as belt change, so worth considering.
All the years I've been maintaining cars I've added an egg cup full of machine shop 'soluble oil' to the coolant mix and never had a water pump fail or leak. Put it in the central heating header tank to - same story, pump is 20 years old and no noise or leaks. Carbon faced and ceramic seals in pumps love lubrication! :)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,238 Posts
All the years I've been maintaining cars I've added an egg cup full of machine shop 'soluble oil' to the coolant mix and never had a water pump fail or leak. Put it in the central heating header tank to - same story, pump is 20 years old and no noise or leaks. Carbon faced and ceramic seals in pumps love lubrication! :)
Vox,

From my industrial career, soluble oil/water mixtures are a health hazard due to the build-up of bacteria over time. This bacteria will cause dermatitis and other skin allergies if the contaminated fluid is not changed regularly.

Years ago, I did the same as you by putting soluble oil in the coolant. One day while removing the radiator cap on a hot engine, I released the cap before the system pressure had been fully bled and my clothes were wet by the coolant that spurted out from under the cap. I kept the wet clothes on until I finished the replacement of the radiator hoses which proved to be a mistake.

The next day I had a massive skin rash where the wet clothes had been in contact with my skin which took a few days to subside. Needless to say, I have never used soluble oil since.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,798 Posts
I always thought the anti bacterials and possible cause of skin rash would come from the ethylene glycol and additives they put in it, since these can be up to 50% of the coolant mix ratio? Skin sensitivity can vary person to person. We have kids growing up now who never mucked around in muck living in houses saturated with anti bacterials getting all kinds of sensitivity health problems. I ran an old car engine once without any additive in the coolant and after a month there was a lot of algae slime build up. I grew up in an engineering city before Health & Safety kicked in. Lathe and milling machinists worked with soluble cutting oils and I never saw them wearing gloves. :confused:

I had problems controlling bacteria and algae in my water cooled pc cooling loop. 10% ethylene glycol has fixed that and the circulating water has remained clear for 4 months. I'm convinced glycol based coolant mixtures kill bacteria, either due to the glycol itself or what they mix with it.

When you run a diesel car with all the nasty stuff that comes from the oil, fuel, and brakes plus any engine contaminants that leech into the coolant, you learn to use gloves a lot more. In the past I was very lazy but my hands never reacted to motor vehicle fluids and there's no dermatitis. But with hindsight I should have used gloves more often.

As I have got some mild facial keratoses, I would be more concerned living in very sunny countries with high U.V levels.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
57 Posts
Discussion Starter #80
Jst like talking to my misses.....
Try talking to her about one thing and she replies with something totaly random lmao
 
61 - 80 of 80 Posts
Top