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I searched everywhere for info on the extra wires. All I could find was a reference that 13 wires passenger and 11 wires driver were for top of the range powerfolds. They are supposed to have come from the same EOS but MY07 wiring diagrams don't show the changes Thanks for pointing me to the Golf I'll try and find a schematic. I had measured across random pairs and couldn't get any XY feedback, but I had no diagram to tell me how they are wired. It's a function I probably won't use. If you can PM me the diagram pin connections, that would be helpful.

You need to be careful with the 'simple concept'. The door lock motors are driven with impulses. The powerfold motor is still small but more powerful than the XY tilt motors. It's normal running current is about 0.6A, but shoots up to over 1.5A on stall. If you don't incorporate over current detection I think it will easily burn out and defeat the whole point of doing the mod. The simplest wiring I'm suggesting for powerfold is 3 wires, 1 ground, 1 permanent +12 volt, 1 switched 12V from ignition 'on'. They are all there AFIK. The complication comes when manual operation is required from their console switch. It's doable but would need 1 or 2 wires to link between the two doors. It's probably useful to drive through narrow gates or park in narrow spaces on ferries.

The electrochromic dimming is interesting. Don't try connecting 12 Volt!!. It behaves like a very large capacitor and needs 2-3 volt at 200-300 mA to fully darken. When you remove the power source, they take a few seconds to recover back to normal, which implies if you aren't using them and there's no connection through the controller, they should be bridged with a discharge resistor. They are probably using pwm to control the dim. I thought about building my own front and rear facing light sensors but can't be bothered with the hassle.
PS: I see their puddle lights are tungsten. Are they easy to change if faulty?

I thought so, but I can deal with that. It should be a ladder resistor chain with a fixed voltage at the top. Voltage changes according to the switch position which their controller ADC measures requiring only 2 wires. I expect my basic door controllers will ignore the powerfold switch and I need to measure a switch to find out what voltages they are using. A couple of voltage comparators will do the trick.
The max output of the auto dimming mirror is 1.2v. Not sure if sending 2-3 volts to the door mirror is a good idea. Rather than build your own sensors, why not just install a auto dimming rear view mirror? You can simplify the process, that is, forgo a reverse lockout and a dome light lock out, that leaves you with just a switched 12 volt and ground. Both are available in your map light assembly. You would then just need to route two wires over to your door (for the auto dimming door mirror). I could probably build you a auto dimming mirror with a non-auto dimming mirror bracket but I would suggest going with the OEM mirror with the RLS bracket and installing a new mounting base on your windshield, already discuss this with AKU, check that thread.

The door mirror puddle lights use halogen bulbs that do put out a lot of heat and could deform the housings. You can either replace the puddle lights with canbus compatible LED housings or just replace the halogen bulbs with LED's. I opted for the later, just make sure if you do, you choose a LED bulb that has resistors so you don't end up with any bulb out lights. I replaced all of my halogen bulbs with LED's, that includes the two front driving lights, fog lights, four foot well lights, two map lights, glove box light, trunk light and license plate lights. Pure white and much brighter than the stock bulbs.
 

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Automating folding mirrors on a VW seems to be one of those seeming simple things that is hard to implement. Our US spec 2014 Komfort does not have the mirror hardware, but our 2012 Tiguan did. Now most of those electronics were of the Mk6 variety, but there was no provision to code automatic mirror folding. If you stepped over to an Audi, then it was sometimes there (model dependent), but getting it on an VW was pretty much impossible. The top of the line Touareg might have had the feature, but in the US you had to pay Audi money to get one of those.
 

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The max output of the auto dimming mirror is 1.2v. Not sure if sending 2-3 volts to the door mirror is a good idea. Rather than build your own sensors, why not just install a auto dimming rear view mirror? You can simplify the process, that is, forgo a reverse lockout and a dome light lock out, that leaves you with just a switched 12 volt and ground. Both are available in your map light assembly. You would then just need to route two wires over to your door (for the auto dimming door mirror). I could probably build you a auto dimming mirror with a non-auto dimming mirror bracket but I would suggest going with the OEM mirror with the RLS bracket and installing a new mounting base on your windshield, already discuss this with AKU, check that thread.

The door mirror puddle lights use halogen bulbs that do put out a lot of heat and could deform the housings. You can either replace the puddle lights with canbus compatible LED housings or just replace the halogen bulbs with LED's. I opted for the later, just make sure if you do, you choose a LED bulb that has resistors so you don't end up with any bulb out lights. I replaced all of my halogen bulbs with LED's, that includes the two front driving lights, fog lights, four foot well lights, two map lights, glove box light, trunk light and license plate lights. Pure white and much brighter than the stock bulbs.
Thanks, many helpful suggestions. The current is more important than the voltage so I used a series resistor for testing. Since the auto dimming is variable, I think that output isn't d.c but a pwm drive? Whatever I decide to do I will be limited by the door controller version and mine are both early. In my priority of features, dimming mirrors are low down because I do very little night driving. Same is true of the auto memory mirror for reverse. Nice to have, but I'm pretty good at kerb parking so I'm concentrating on getting the powerfolds to work with my old controllers.

Good tip for the mirror halogen puddles. The housing on mine is Ali and only the cover is acrylic as far as I can tell? Do you know what value resistor they added to keep off the bulb out warning? It is probably less than 5W, otherwise the led would put out the same heat as the tungsten it was replacing.
 

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Automating folding mirrors on a VW seems to be one of those seeming simple things that is hard to implement. Our US spec 2014 Komfort does not have the mirror hardware, but our 2012 Tiguan did. Now most of those electronics were of the Mk6 variety, but there was no provision to code automatic mirror folding. If you stepped over to an Audi, then it was sometimes there (model dependent), but getting it on an VW was pretty much impossible. The top of the line Touareg might have had the feature had the feature, but in the US you had to pay Audi money to get one of those.
Like aku, MY07 Lowline door controllers have the programming options for powerfolds which I can set with vcds, but the controller connector probably has pins missing. The big unanswered question as yet is do they have active tracks on the boards and just left out the pins from the header socket which can be fixed.

The powerfold function alone should have been simple to implement until they added the powerfold switch which has to be read by a compatible door motor controller.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Automating folding mirrors on a VW seems to be one of those seeming simple things that is hard to implement...

most of those electronics were of the Mk6 variety, but there was no provision to code automatic mirror folding.
Yep, you have to be able to program the EEPROM to do it. Mk6 and later mk5 controllers will do mirror fold on lock - even some earlier Seat controllers did it if the internet is to be believed.

@voxmagna Do you have the auto-dimming rear view mirror? If it was factory installed, you may have a couple of wires that run into your door wiring harness, which you can then attach directly to the mirror. It's all in the wiring diagrams :)
 

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Thanks, many helpful suggestions. The current is more important than the voltage so I used a series resistor for testing. Since the auto dimming is variable, I think that output isn't d.c but a pwm drive? Whatever I decide to do I will be limited by the door controller version and mine are both early. In my priority of features, dimming mirrors are low down because I do very little night driving. Same is true of the auto memory mirror for reverse. Nice to have, but I'm pretty good at kerb parking so I'm concentrating on getting the powerfolds to work with my old controllers.

Good tip for the mirror halogen puddles. The housing on mine is Ali and only the cover is acrylic as far as I can tell? Do you know what value resistor they added to keep off the bulb out warning? It is probably less than 5W, otherwise the led would put out the same heat as the tungsten it was replacing.
I measured 1.2v DC coming out of the mirror, which varied depending upon how much light the sensor is detecting.

Can't see the resistors on the LED's I have, you may have to do some searching for other LED's that may have exposed resistors. This is what they look like and how they look in the EOS
 

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Yep, you have to be able to program the EEPROM to do it. Mk6 and later mk5 controllers will do mirror fold on lock - even some earlier Seat controllers did it if the internet is to be believed.

@voxmagna Do you have the auto-dimming rear view mirror? If it was factory installed, you may have a couple of wires that run into your door wiring harness, which you can then attach directly to the mirror. It's all in the wiring diagrams :)
If the car did not originally come equipped with the auto dimming door mirror and you do have a factory equipped auto dimming rear view mirror, it will only have four wires, it will be missing the two wires going to the door (and it won't have the ability to dim the door mirror). You would need a six wire auto dimming rear view mirror OR you could open up the mirror and tap directly into the leads going to the auto dimming glass, piggy back off of those. Not sure how well it would work though, as you would be splitting that already low DC voltage by a factor of two. When I have time, I may try to connect two pieces of auto dimming glass off of one main controller and test to see what happens.
 

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If each external mirror is 2-3 volts @about 300mA each, then add in the smaller interior mirror say 200mA that's nearly 1 amp & 2-3 volts switched by pwm. Although they could be using a higher voltage and meet the current needs with the switcher same as is done with stepper motors. That's what I did with my 3V + and a series resistor, but I was using a current limted bench power supply set for 300mA. I didn't know what the current limit for the mirror was but it could go higher than this.

I measured 1.2v DC coming out of the mirror
Don't be fooled measuring d.c voltages with a multimeter. You need a 'scope. I think they will use pwm. For a bright mirror you could see 12 volts peak switching for 1 % of the time and for a dark mirror up to 100% depending on what maximum current they want for darkness. When you measure with a multimeter you could be measuring a.c (switched d.c) and the meter will give a false d.c reading.

Best to start with a 'scope, to determine the peak voltage first (It could be 12 V?). You then find out the duty cycle (on-off time) for a bright and dimmed mirror. Since the external and internal mirrors are a different size and would need a different current for the same darkening, I'd be surprised if they are using the same switched supply source and there's a risk if you connect two external mirrors you could poof the switcher? You can confirm this on the wiring diagram. If all mirrors are piggy backed on the same wire pair, then I'm wrong. If the interior and exterior mirror wire pairs are kept separate, then I'm probably right. Some digital multimeters have a peak reading option. I wouldn't rely 100% on the numbers it gives but if the peak value and d.c value are different or you get an a.c reading, then you are trying to measure a switched voltage.


2phast & aku:
If you can see an application for the exterior and interior mirrors to be dimmable manually with a simple variable resistor - or a preset dim level using a push button and no connections to V.W electronics, I might have something working in a few days. Much like what I have with the basic interior flip lever, but that lever also dimming the external mirrors to a preset level? Not sure I like the 8-10 seconds lag to come out of dim though.
 

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If each external mirror is 2-3 volts @about 300mA each, then add in the smaller interior mirror say 200mA that's nearly 1 amp & 2-3 volts switched by pwm. Although they could be using a higher voltage and meet the current needs with the switcher same as is done with stepper motors. That's what I did with my 3V + and a series resistor, but I was using a current limted bench power supply set for 300mA. I didn't know what the current limit for the mirror was but it could go higher than this.

Don't be fooled measuring d.c voltages with a multimeter. You need a 'scope. I think they will use pwm. For a bright mirror you could see 12 volts peak switching for 1 % of the time and for a dark mirror up to 100% depending on what maximum current they want for darkness. When you measure with a multimeter you could be measuring a.c (switched d.c) and the meter will give a false d.c reading.

Best to start with a 'scope, to determine the peak voltage first (It could be 12 V?). You then find out the duty cycle (on-off time) for a bright and dimmed mirror. Since the external and internal mirrors are a different size and would need a different current for the same darkening, I'd be surprised if they are using the same switched supply source and there's a risk if you connect two external mirrors you could poof the switcher? You can confirm this on the wiring diagram. If all mirrors are piggy backed on the same wire pair, then I'm wrong. If the interior and exterior mirror wire pairs are kept separate, then I'm probably right. Some digital multimeters have a peak reading option. I wouldn't rely 100% on the numbers it gives but if the peak value and d.c value are different or you get an a.c reading, then you are trying to measure a switched voltage.


2phast & aku:
If you can see an application for the exterior and interior mirrors to be dimmable manually with a simple variable resistor - or a preset dim level using a push button and no connections to V.W electronics, I might have something working in a few days. Much like what I have with the basic interior flip lever, but that lever also dimming the external mirrors to a preset level? Not sure I like the 8-10 seconds lag to come out of dim though.
All auto dimming mirrors I have every worked on either have no outputs for door mirrors or dedicated outputs. In the case of VW mirrors, its one dedicated output for the drivers mirror. In the case of some BMW's and Mercedes, they will have two sets of dedicated outputs. The mirror I just built out for my EOS actually has two sets of outputs but I only used one. The outputs also act identical with no discernable difference, both sets output the same voltage as measured by my VOM. This is for non-LinBus mirrors. Later model cars that implement LinBus are next to impossible to energize on my bench, due to no signal from the LinBus master, you can't power up these mirrors to even test..
 

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Discussion Starter #50
After studying the wiring diagrams, it seems like the earlier versions of the door control module depend on two wires from the auto-dimming rear view mirror (purple/black and purple/brown) but from 2009 there's only a need for the purple/black wire. I wonder why!

(Incidentally, the wiring diagram claims that the one output from the RVM may split to go to driver and passenger sides, for cars that have two anti-dazzle mirrors. I have never encountered such a car, nor even a passenger anti-dazzle mirror.)
 

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I expected the 'control' to come from the interior mirror because that's where the sensors are for monitoring dazzle. Dimming 2 external and 1 internal mirror would need quite a lot of power from the source.

I've had a closer look at my 2 V.W exterior mirrors. Although both plugs are wired for dimming on pins 8,16, only the driver side mirror has dimming but my passenger side has the XY pots for mirror down memory. That makes things much simpler because the currents needed will be lower and I can see how they could just link the low voltage source from the interior mirror. I don't know why you have a V.W interior mirror with 2 outputs. But their diagrams, wiring and what's in their parts isn't always the same. The area of the internal mirror is about the same as external and the same voltage source should produce about the same dim level. The electrochromic layer acts as a huge capacitor. When low voltage is first applied the mirror takes the most current, then as the mirror charges, that current reduces. For about half dim at 1.5 volts I was seeing around 120mA.

Any bus control is pain but the way it's all going, even for Liion batteries in EVs. proprietary chip control is already in most things and you can't get many V.W radios to turn on without the CANbus commands. But you discover them if you have a bus monitor. I've got a couple added in software to USB oscilloscopes. The theory of reverse engineering is to monitor a working system bus to capture data traffic, then operate the device and search for the PIDs. If you capture and save the data stream for power on and dim you can compare the background data captured to that after operating the device, you can even send it back through a LIN master and get it to work - In theory!
 

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After studying the wiring diagrams, it seems like the earlier versions of the door control module depend on two wires from the auto-dimming rear view mirror (purple/black and purple/brown) but from 2009 there's only a need for the purple/black wire. I wonder why!
Most wires with brown in them are usually associated with a ground which is all you need for these mirrors. My thoughts: The early mirrors had both wires brought out to the connector from the external mirror but one of them (The purple/brown) was used as a ground? It could be grounded anywhere between the door controller and the interior mirror it links to? On later mirrors they wired the purple brown to ground on the 16 pin mirror connector. Since that pin on the door controller wasn't needed they could do away with it and save money on thousands of cars. The problem comes when you try to fit an early mirror on a late door controller because nothing would be connected to one wire. If I'm right you would have to link or strap the purple/brown wire together inside the connector shell, or its done inside the mirror? If they have done this, one wire from the low voltage power source (in the RVM) must be grounded. Ask 2phast to buzz out his V.W RVMs to see if one wire to the exterior mirror is battery negative ground or both wires are floating? If you have access to a door controller with pins in 8 & 16 you could do the same? You really need a fully wired working V.W mirror system to prove if there's a ground on one leg and where it is.

I just read 2phasts post. If indeed they fitted LINbus controls then as he said one wire is now used for control data. In that case, if you opened up a compatible mirror, you would expect to find a module mounted inside somewhere. That module would contain the step down voltage regulator requiring 12 volts to power it and the LIN wire would be a slave to the RVM? There is no +12V wiring into my mirrors so those later mirrors must have +12V to power the dc-dc converter, controller and LIN module? You can't rely on V.W diagrams but if later powerfolds incorporate LINbus comms modules I would expect their wiring to show it?

aku - I thought you had a pair of later facelift powerfolds? What little black boxes are inside them if any and what wires go to pins 8 & 16? If you put a digital meter on ohms and connect across pins 8,16 you should get initial low ohms (short circuit) rising as the big capacitor charges. If you get nothing, then either there's no dimming element in the glass or it's LINbus controlled as 2phast suggests?
 

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After studying the wiring diagrams, it seems like the earlier versions of the door control module depend on two wires from the auto-dimming rear view mirror (purple/black and purple/brown) but from 2009 there's only a need for the purple/black wire. I wonder why!

(Incidentally, the wiring diagram claims that the one output from the RVM may split to go to driver and passenger sides, for cars that have two anti-dazzle mirrors. I have never encountered such a car, nor even a passenger anti-dazzle mirror.)
To date, I have only taken apart 2007, 2008 and 2010 (four wire) Volkswagen mirrors. The 07/08 have two auto dim wires for the drivers door, the 2010 was a four wire, so no auto dim for the drivers door. In newer cars that utilize LinBus, there is only one wire that tells the device what to do, so it can serve a multitude of purposes. No longer do you need two wires for left and two wires for right door mirrors, one LinBus wire is all that is needed for the two-way communication. Seems for most cars 2009 was the transitional year, at least for German cars.
 

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I expected the 'control' to come from the interior mirror because that's where the sensors are for monitoring dazzle. Dimming 2 external and 1 internal mirror would need quite a lot of power from the source.

I've had a closer look at my 2 V.W exterior mirrors. Although both plugs are wired for dimming on pins 8,16, only the driver side mirror has dimming but my passenger side has the XY pots for mirror down memory. That makes things much simpler because the currents needed will be lower and I can see how they could just link the low voltage source from the interior mirror. I don't know why you have a V.W interior mirror with 2 outputs. But their diagrams, wiring and what's in their parts isn't always the same. The area of the internal mirror is about the same as external and the same voltage source should produce about the same dim level. The electrochromic layer acts as a huge capacitor. When low voltage is first applied the mirror takes the most current, then as the mirror charges, that current reduces. For about half dim at 1.5 volts I was seeing around 120mA.

Any bus control is pain but the way it's all going, even for Liion batteries in EVs. proprietary chip control is already in most things and you can't get many V.W radios to turn on without the CANbus commands. But you discover them if you have a bus monitor. I've got a couple added in software to USB oscilloscopes. The theory of reverse engineering is to monitor a working system bus to capture data traffic, then operate the device and search for the PIDs. If you capture and save the data stream for power on and dim you can compare the background data captured to that after operating the device, you can even send it back through a LIN master and get it to work - In theory!
I actually built a Linbus simulator using Arduino but I don't have a oscilloscope, so a engineer in the UK who happened to capture the Linbus signals from a BMW, shared the coding with me. It worked on his BMW mirror (which he retrofitted to a older BMW) but that same coding did not work on a Mercedes mirror. Both mirrors were 2009 and should of used the same version of Linbus and both mirrors are made by the same manufacture. But of course, it did not work. The Linbus master sends a "wake" command to the device, then every few milliseconds the Linbus master sends a "stay awake" command. If the "wake" command is not received, the device will not power up. If the "stay awake" command is not received, the device will shut down after powering up.

Have not explored this any further, due to the lack of information on Linbus.
 

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Most wires with brown in them are usually associated with a ground which is all you need for these mirrors. My thoughts: The early mirrors had both wires brought out to the connector from the external mirror but one of them (The purple/brown) was used as a ground? It could be grounded anywhere between the door controller and the interior mirror it links to? On later mirrors they wired the purple brown to ground on the 16 pin mirror connector. Since that pin on the door controller wasn't needed they could do away with it and save money on thousands of cars. The problem comes when you try to fit an early mirror on a late door controller because nothing would be connected to one wire. If I'm right you would have to link or strap the purple/brown wire together inside the connector shell, or its done inside the mirror? If they have done this, one wire from the low voltage power source (in the RVM) must be grounded. Ask 2phast to buzz out his V.W RVMs to see if one wire to the exterior mirror is battery negative ground or both wires are floating? If you have access to a door controller with pins in 8 & 16 you could do the same? You really need a fully wired working V.W mirror system to prove if there's a ground on one leg and where it is.

I just read 2phasts post. If indeed they fitted LINbus controls then as he said one wire is now used for control data. In that case, if you opened up a compatible mirror, you would expect to find a module mounted inside somewhere. That module would contain the step down voltage regulator requiring 12 volts to power it and the LIN wire would be a slave to the RVM? There is no +12V wiring into my mirrors so those later mirrors must have +12V to power the dc-dc converter, controller and LIN module? You can't rely on V.W diagrams but if later powerfold incorporate LINbus comms I would expect their wiring to show it?
I have a 2007 six wire mirror in transit to me and it will be taken apart for conversion, so can test that one.
 

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Ok you are across the LINbus control. I bought a couple of cheap 2 channel USB scopes. They are pretty crap for decent fast pulse analogue, but o.k on logic level signals not hugely fast but you can store a lot. When I dug into the control software I found 'interpreters' for CAN, LIN and a several others. Manufacturers often do proprietary coding and don't always stick to the (LIN) standards although the protocols are usually correct. If you can capture a working handshake, replay it and it works, you should be able to discover it. Others have done this for CAN radios. Well in V.W speak CAN isn't what I know as 2 wire balanced CAN - that's used for fast detailed data like the ECU. V.W use single wire LIN for most of the comfort/convenience features and create sub blocks which talk to each other. To make things worse (I think) they collect and concentrate the LINbus data through their diagnostics module so the codes you see on the OBD connector aren't always the same as codes on the LIN wire bus. DIY hobbyists can trawl through screens of Hex data blocks. The interpreters are helpful but not so with non-standard proprietary codes. A pro CAN diagnostics kit designed for V.W systems has all the code translation work done, but costs a huge amount of money. I'd love to play more with capturing and sending blocks of data, but I don't want to risk bricking a working car!

If you are right about LIN used for later dimming mirrors, it's a complete system and aku has his work cut out matching all the component parts. If they are using LINbus for dimming external mirrors, I might expect this to be integrated with all the other mirror functions?
 

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Discussion Starter #57
aku - I thought you had a pair of later facelift powerfolds? What little black boxes are inside them if any and what wires go to pins 8 & 16? If you put a digital meter on ohms and connect across pins 8,16 you should get initial low ohms (short circuit) rising as the big capacitor charges. If you get nothing, then either there's no dimming element in the glass or it's LINbus controlled as 2phast suggests?
The wires 8 and 16 go straight to the dimming element in the mirror glass - at least on the facelift mirror I have on my bench at the moment.

I suspect that the wires that go from the auto dimming rear view mirror to the door control module won't be carrying the same signal as the wires that go from the door control module to the wing mirror. I'll be very interested to find out the truth though!
 

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Nothing is easy on these cars. From what we understand so far, with your RVM connected you should be getting some small voltage on pins 8 & 16? Or doing it reverse, the two wires you think go to the door control module should look like the big capacitor when you connect an ohmeter, or connect your ohmeter to each of pins 8 & 16 and see if there's continuity to any of the wires on the RVM?
 

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The wires 8 and 16 go straight to the dimming element in the mirror glass - at least on the facelift mirror I have on my bench at the moment.

I suspect that the wires that go from the auto dimming rear view mirror to the door control module won't be carrying the same signal as the wires that go from the door control module to the wing mirror. I'll be very interested to find out the truth though!
With Linbus, assuming that is what your dealing with, the output from the interior mirror (slave) goes back to the Linbus (master) the master then sends the needed command to the door mirror (slave). This can all be done with a single communication wire, so in the past for a auto dimming rear view mirror to dim two door mirrors, it required four wires, with Linbus, it requires only one.

Non Linbus would have two wires from the rear view mirror to the door controller, from the door controller to the rear view mirror. Seems like a unnecessary junction but since the door controllers are programmable, there probably is some logic behind the reasoning.

The signal from the auto dimming mirror is the same signal received at the actual door mirror, its not changed in a way I noticed (mind you, I only have a VOM and look at DC voltage only)
 

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aku - You are a Grand Master of wiring diagrams, the arrangement suggested by 2phast should be somewhere on a diagram or is it like my problem that an EOS wiring diagram can't be found for this? Brain fog today, but V.W are fairly consistent with their choice of wire colors for databus control signals and if you see any of those around the mirror, then suspect LINbus control. Damn this complex single wire control to save on a few wires. As I found with the rear door locks, single wire bus referenced to ground is bad news for ground spikes, over voltage and noise. Especially when people do jump starting, change batteries and hook up non-smart chargers!
 
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