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Discussion Starter #61
Early wiring diagrams have two wires going from the RVM to the door module - purple/black and purple/brown. Later ones only have the purple/black wire - the purple/brown one is gone. Things that use LIN bus are usually purple/white and the wiring diagrams say "lin" on at least one end. The purple/brown wire on the early wiring diagrams is shown as connecting to a photodiode within the RVM.

Short answer is that there's not enough on the wiring diagram to determine what's going on! Based on what I've seen I would assume that the two wires (purple/black and purple/brown) are not a circuit but are two independent signal wires, and later controllers depend only on one of the signal wires. If the purple/black wire sends the same signal as before, why they don't need the other one is an absolute mystery to me though! I guess we will just have to wait for 2phast to report his findings. :)
 

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2phast has RVMs to play with and you have the exterior mirror so the mystery seems to be what goes in between them? There should be at least one rear facing photodiode whilst some have a front and rear facing. But V.W being economical could be using the output from their RLS to monitor front, or rather upwards daylight. The exterior mirror dim must get controlled low voltage regulated dc from somewhere, either inside the mirror, from the door control module, the RVM or a black box or module you haven't found yet? You helped me out with some info from the Golf that I couldn't find for the EOS. Are there any other VAG models with more relevant wiring details? As 2phast suggests, it will probably late vehicles that incorporate LINbus control for the smart mirrors.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
Back to the original subject... I lubricated the hinges on the mirrors on my car and can report success!

I lubricated them only from beneath, folding the mirrors in manually so that they raise slightly and inserting the nozzle through the gap, then folding and unfolding manually a few times to ensure it spreads. I used WD-40 because the nozzle on my can of lithium grease is too short.

When it warms up I'll do the job properly - but this at least confirms what I originally thought: that that aluminium joint is the cause of the issue. -4C outside and, after the car not being used for a few days, the mirrors unfolded first time.
 

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I've been playing with my Powerfolds on the bench whilst exploring the dimming and how the powerfold switch signals close and open (for car washes). During my tests the powerfold hinge had very little friction. I timed the operation which is 1.5 seconds to open and close for up to 1 amp current draw before stall, then way over this. Either my mirrors are fairly new or they have spent most of their time garaged because they run smooth and fast? Measuring the current draw is a good way to tell if the motor is working too hard against friction.

I have another suggestion for the hinge design problem: As you discovered, they use an aluminium pivot in a bush. I would expect them to have designed in some tolerance, but too much and the mirror would vibrate. If you get any moisture or water inside the aluminium bushing it could freeze. I don't know if you tried putting a plastic bag over one and warming the whole lot with a hair dryer? That would prove my theory.

How to fix pivot icing? If you can remove the mirror from its pivot, dry it and get silicone grease over its length, that should stop water getting on it. Alternatively, I would probably use Krytox grease if I had it. Your success may be short lived because WD40 is a very thin oil and won't stay there for long if water displaces it. When the weather warms, a freezing problem may go away until next Winter. The mirror heaters will put some heat into the aluminium body and this heating and cooling could encourage moisture to form on the cold pivot and freeze?

As for a permanent design fix for the joint, If it's possible to leave the peg alone and bore out the hole a little, a ptfe sleeve pushed over the hinge spigot would work. You get both lube and water sealing without using grease or oil. Water can't run down from the top of the mirror, but looking at photos of corroded brackets, I think it could wick up? After greasing the pivot stub, can you get an 'O' ring between the mirror casting and the base to provide a seal? That might be a cheap fix.
 

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Early wiring diagrams have two wires going from the RVM to the door module - purple/black and purple/brown. Later ones only have the purple/black wire - the purple/brown one is gone. Things that use LIN bus are usually purple/white and the wiring diagrams say "lin" on at least one end. The purple/brown wire on the early wiring diagrams is shown as connecting to a photodiode within the RVM.

Short answer is that there's not enough on the wiring diagram to determine what's going on! Based on what I've seen I would assume that the two wires (purple/black and purple/brown) are not a circuit but are two independent signal wires, and later controllers depend only on one of the signal wires. If the purple/black wire sends the same signal as before, why they don't need the other one is an absolute mystery to me though! I guess we will just have to wait for 2phast to report his findings. :)
I have a 07 Touareg mirror that will be in soon for tear down. Same mirror the EOS uses except it has the mood lights built into it (EOS has them in the map light assembly). Happy to test anything for you, but keep in mind, I only have a Fluke VOM.

For reference, to excite the fluid that is sandwiched between the two pieces of glass, a positive current is sent to one piece of glass and a negative current is sent to the other piece of glass. I have not encountered any mirror that deviates from this. A Linbus single wire won't dim a mirror, rather, it would carry a signal back to the master, which in turn would relay a signal to the Linbus slave (most likely the door module) and the door module would signal the door mirror to dim.

On a Mercedes that single Linbus wire can tell both door mirrors to dim, the passenger side mirror to dip (when in reverse), the rear view mirror to not dim when the vehicle is put into reverse and the rear view mirror to not dim when the interior dome lights are turned on. Pre Linbus would of required six wires to achieve this, with Linbus only one wire is necessary.
 

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2phast has RVMs to play with and you have the exterior mirror so the mystery seems to be what goes in between them? There should be at least one rear facing photodiode whilst some have a front and rear facing. But V.W being economical could be using the output from their RLS to monitor front, or rather upwards daylight. The exterior mirror dim must get controlled low voltage regulated dc from somewhere, either inside the mirror, from the door control module, the RVM or a black box or module you haven't found yet? You helped me out with some info from the Golf that I couldn't find for the EOS. Are there any other VAG models with more relevant wiring details? As 2phast suggests, it will probably late vehicles that incorporate LINbus control for the smart mirrors.
Auto dimming requires two photodiodes, the front determines if its day or night. The rear would be energized if the night mode is set to on. The rear sensor analyzes how much light is present and sends a variable signal to the mirror glass, just a little light, just a little bit dim, very bright light, very dark dim. There are mirrors with just a front photodiode, but those are really old mirrors and pre-date auto dimming ones. Those older mirrors had a manual switch to set the amount of dimming, low, medium, high. Due to the presence of a manual switch, a rear photodiode wasn't necessary.

On pre Linbus cars, the RVM controls the how, when and how much the dimming is on the door mirrors. On Linbus cars, the Linbus only sends a signal. Either the door control module sends the variable voltage to the door mirror (most likely) or the door module instructs the door mirror on how much to dim and the door mirror itself provides the variable current (unlikely). I wouldn't expect the latter to be the case though, that would require more sophistication inside the mirror than what is there.

A diagram that shows the single Linbus wire going to the door control module, should show two wires from the door control module that go to the door mirror glass as well. If this isn't easily available, the only way to know for sure is to do a physical test on a known Linbus equipped vehicle, probing the wires before/after the RVM dims.

These pictures are off a basic Mercedes E-Class mirror, you can see how the voltage is fed to the glass, via the long metal strips that run the length of each piece of glass. Front photo sensor not visible but you can see the opening for it in the corner of the glass, rear sensors can either be mounted directly to the circuit board or encased in a tower that extends it into the rear opening in the mirror casing.
 

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These things are complicated aren't they? I found a YT video that explained it well. What's not covered is the amount of 'control' done via LINbus. I noticed on the other side of the board in the video it was covered in a big chip. That would be the dc power source driver and LIN slave controller embedded. They have to but a bus controller somewhere and since the RVM has everything going on inside it, including switches & the front & rear photodiodes, it makes sense to put it there and interecept commands for exterior mirror brightness, either in the mirrors themselves or in the door controllers. If the mirrors have both dim wires connected to the plug and going nowhere else, the dc power and control must come from the door control module? If the external mirrors have 2 dim wires but go to a chip and only one wire leaves it, they have put the LIN control inside the mirror. I think the only way aku can confirm LIN control or not is to check the continuity of the 2 dim pins 15 &16. If they each get to the RVM them that is providing all the functions and just outputs low voltage d.c. If continuity is broken then he can suspect the door control module has a LIN controller and only a single wire plus ground connects to the RVM, but in practice is could be a pair - data ground and comms.

The V.W EOS has pre and post facelift styled exterior mirrors with Dim usually on the driver side. It would be a significant change for them to redesign the exterior mirror electrics for bus modules and a lot easier to keep them dumb and change the door controllers? The exterior mirrors are not that well protected against water and salt spray and wouldn't be a good place to put sensitive electronics, unless fully encapsulated.

 

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These things are complicated aren't they? I found a YT video that explained it well. What's not covered is the amount of 'control' done via LINbus. I noticed on the other side of the board in the video it was covered in a big chip. That would be the dc power source driver and LIN slave controller embedded. They have to but a bus controller somewhere and since the RVM has everything going on inside it, including switches & the front & rear photodiodes, it makes sense to put it there and interecept commands for exterior mirror brightness, either in the mirrors themselves or in the door controllers. If the mirrors have both dim wires connected to the plug and going nowhere else, the dc power and control must come from the door control module? If the external mirrors have 2 dim wires but go to a chip and only one wire leaves it, they have put the LIN control inside the mirror. I think the only way aku can confirm LIN control or not is to check the continuity of the 2 dim pins 15 &16. If they each get to the RVM them that is providing all the functions and just outputs low voltage d.c. If continuity is broken then he can suspect the door control module has a LIN controller and only a single wire plus ground connects to the RVM, but in practice is could be a pair - data ground and comms.

The V.W EOS has pre and post facelift styled exterior mirrors with Dim usually on the driver side. It would be a significant change for them to redesign the exterior mirror electrics for bus modules and a lot easier to keep them dumb and change the door controllers? The exterior mirrors are not that well protected against water and salt spray and wouldn't be a good place to put sensitive electronics, unless fully encapsulated.

You won't find mention of Linbus in that video as the mirror demonstrated is not from a Linbus equipped vehicle. The mirror would need to be from a 2008/2009 at the earliest. Not all manufactures implemented Linbus at the same time, I believe BMW did it in 2008 and Mercedes in 2009 but those time frames may not be 100% accurate as some models from a particular marque might receive it before others.

I have a 2009 Linbus Mercedes mirror, will take some pictures of the circuit board and post a bit later.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
How to fix pivot icing? If you can remove the mirror from its pivot, dry it and get silicone grease over its length, that should stop water getting on it. Alternatively, I would probably use Krytox grease if I had it. Your success may be short lived because WD40 is a very thin oil and won't stay there for long if water displaces it. When the weather warms, a freezing problem may go away until next Winter. The mirror heaters will put some heat into the aluminium body and this heating and cooling could encourage moisture to form on the cold pivot and freeze?
Yep, I know it's a temporary fix. But at least I identified the problem. :)

Removing the mirror from the pivot is difficult, but getting it back on is a real pain, as detailed in the first post in this thread. So the options now are to either do something proper (fix it once and it'll be good for a lifetime) or do something that's easy enough to do regularly.

I think lithium grease applied at both ends and worked into the pivot would work better than WD-40 - but I'm not an expert on lubricants so I don't know the qualities of lithium vs silicone grease. Time for me to do some reading I guess!

It could be academic, because I'm aiming to replace the mirrors with facelift ones before next winter, but it's always worth learning!
 

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Discussion Starter #70
The V.W EOS has pre and post facelift styled exterior mirrors with Dim usually on the driver side. It would be a significant change for them to redesign the exterior mirror electrics for bus modules and a lot easier to keep them dumb and change the door controllers? The exterior mirrors are not that well protected against water and salt spray and wouldn't be a good place to put sensitive electronics, unless fully encapsulated.
This is also my thinking. We can already be reasonably certain that the dimming mirrors are "dumb" - that is, they just have the LCD in them, and the door control module applies voltage as required. What we don't know is what the wires/wire (old/new) going between the RVM and door module are doing.
 

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You need an EOS with a full spec. working system to play with? The best you can do is try and work it out from the Interior +exterior mirrors and door controllers, whilst keeping an open mind there could be something else in between. I've got a first schematic circuit looking hopeful for my powerfolds and I don't think I'll bother with dimming. But the test with any new bench design is if it works in the V.W system. In the back of my mind, I'm wondering what secrets are inside the door controllers to avoid needing a custom controller. I need to wait until the weather picks up to find out. You told me pins 15 & 16 on my early door controller are missing and I need to dig further into that, because it puzzles me when options are there to enable powerfold functions.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
I think your VCDS may not be clever enough to know that the powerfold options aren't available on that controller. It should tell you that the +4096 for folding mirrors applies to MY2008+ (the GEN3 door control modules) as the second-generation ones either worked or didn't, there was no coding (presumably down to hardware or firmware versions).
 

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Thks. I'll see if it will take the code for powerfold. If I get a rasberry, then I'm 100% certain they won't work and there's no point removing the door card to look at the controller hardware if vcds won't recode it. If the code is accepted and I have non-powerfolds plugged in, I could hope it would throw a mirror fault code which would be re-assurance? I'll let you know. Either way, it tells me whether to finish my own controller or wait until I get the mirrors on.
Edit: I HAVE THE ANSWER:
'Coding rejected - error 31 coding out of range'
So MY07 early door controllers don't have an extended code table for those 'higher' options. At least I know my options are to find a pair of compatible door controllers or finish my schematic design and commit it to a DIY board.

I don't know how you got on sourcing all the compatible parts price wise and what the availability was like? When I looked on Fleabay, some tatty powerfolds were selling for a lot of money and I didn't see many late door controllers. I'm assuming only those compatible with the EOS will work because I had a couple of 1k0 Ex Golf door controllers and they were incompatible. Diagnostic went looking from the gateway table and didn't find them. Actually getting a decent pair of powerfold mirrors, whether pre or post facelift was quite hard. Spending more money to replace the door controllers and a new RVM for the complete shooting match, may be more than I want to spend.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
I can find later Eos door modules over here in Poland for about £30 each. There aren’t many around, but if you’re interested I could help you get them shipped over.

There are some wiring changes involved with installing the gen3 modules to replace gen2 modules. The easiest option is to replace the gen2 min (701/702b) with gen2 max (701/702c) that have the same wiring and extra functionality - but I can only find a passenger side revision C module at the moment, whereas there are a few gen3 (revision E and H) for both sides available right now.
 

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Thanks. When I replaced a rear door module with genuine new from the stealer, I noticed the parts list only showed one current version replacing all previous EOS versions. This made me wonder if V.W have started stocking replacements with universal backwards compatible firmware and hardware? This would make a lot of sense to reduce the number of spares variants they have to stock. When I look at EOS front door modules in the parts catalogue there are lots of them. But some are now appearing in Ebay for £150. I looked at the label on one and it has a suffix 'H' letter and a date of around 2019 which suggests its a replacement spare part and not from a used EOS. What do you know about the 'H' suffix door modules apart from them being expensive? Or are they Chinese emulated clones?
 

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Discussion Starter #76
The H suffix door modules are gen3 max modules, and the electronic part has a separate number beginning 5K0 (indicating that the electronics are common to the Golf 6 and others) as opposed to the earlier 1Q0 electronics on the revision E. Revision H is marked as a replacement for revision E, but revision E is not marked as a replacement for the earlier versions because of the wiring changes.

If you want to source a revision H door module, you should be careful that it has come from an Eos and not a Scirocco, as both used the same part number but with different software. I don't know how the firmware side of things works, but the part numbers have different software codes on the end (something like 1Q0 959 701 H Z0L), and I know from my research that some of the features like the window drop can only be coded in or out through EEPROM programming, not through long coding. And of course, the software version is not printed on the label!

Earlier Sciroccos used the revision F door module, so revision E was exclusively for the Eos, and any revision E door module should be a safe bet (as long as you're happy doing a bit of rewiring).
 

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Thks. Yes there are these EOS parts on Fleabay:
1Q0 959 701 H/Z0L (2018)
1Q0 959 702 H (012?) S2101H007 2008
1Q0 959 702 E S1211H006 2008

..but is there another issue for UK? Many parts (e.g from Germany) are for left hand drive. The motors are physically handed but so to I suspect is the control board. So a lhd passenger door motor won't have the same controller as a rhd drivers door? If yes, that reduces the chances of getting the correct modules.
 

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Discussion Starter #78
The way the door modules are handled is that 701 is the driver's door and 702 is the passenger's - so they're not specific to left or right. LHD/RHD is handled in the coding. An LHD driver's door module (from the left door) is the same as an RHD driver's door module (from the right door) as far as I know - but this needs my ETKA source to wake up so I can check for sure!

EDIT: I'm correct; the carriers are different for LHD and RHD as they carry 1Q1/1Q2 part numbers. The door modules are 1Q0 which means they're suitable for both LHD and RHD.
 

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At least that's re-assuringly good news aku. Are you in a good position to test all these options (ie parts variables) with some certainty? Do you have enough information now to encapsulate your research for what actually works with what and create a chart or a matrix table - e.g EOS years, versions, compatible part numbers, wiring changes needed? It would be really helpful when searching for used parts, although I suspect there's still an element of uncertainty that a part may not give all features.

So far I've learned the powerfold mirrors have all the basic features of XY position adjustment selectable for each mirror plus mirror heating. Additionally, auto dimming on the drivers side (any with passenger side as well?) linked to an auto dimming RVM. Mine has XY position feedback for glass lowering but I don't know what box is needed for that. Sellers will often post up photos of connectors on parts. I know pins 15 & 16 on the door controller are the powerfold motor drive and if they are missing, the door controller is the wrong version - that was really helpful. Do they leave out any other pins?
 

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At least that's re-assuringly good news aku. Are you in a good position to test all these options (ie parts variables) with some certainty? Do you have enough information now to encapsulate your research for what actually works with what and create a chart or a matrix table - e.g EOS years, versions, compatible part numbers, wiring changes needed? It would be really helpful when searching for used parts, although I suspect there's still an element of uncertainty that a part may not give all features.

So far I've learned the powerfold mirrors have all the basic features of XY position adjustment selectable for each mirror plus mirror heating. Additionally, auto dimming on the drivers side (any with passenger side as well?) linked to an auto dimming RVM. Mine has XY position feedback for glass lowering but I don't know what box is needed for that. Sellers will often post up photos of connectors on parts. I know pins 15 & 16 on the door controller are the powerfold motor drive and if they are missing, the door controller is the wrong version - that was really helpful. Do they leave out any other pins?
I have the 701E and 702E controllers in my car, that is what you should probably shoot for.
 
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