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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all, recently spent some time working on a roof that had simply stopped working. This involved repairing the pump motor and fixing loose "strings" within the roof that gave it multiple faults. It was happily working for about 4 months until now. I have an odd problem where the roof works up until the point that it has to close the trunk/boot lid then you can hear the pump clearly loading up with nothing else happening. It basically stops there. I have had it running for about 30 seconds under load with no movement. The onboard controller does not come up with a fault. I am a little worried running the pump on a load for a long time possibly damaging or overloading it.

Things I have checked:
I have made sure the hydraulic hoses are in their correct sockets.
Swapped motors (I have a donor car I purchased recently cheap so plenty of parts)
When you turn the ignition key off the load comes off the lid and you can manually push it closed when loosening the valve on the hydraulic body. But it will not lock everything and leaves the little flaps up.

I can then operate the roof switch and close everything back to normal (Including after a force close) no errors come up. I have a basic non VW OBD reader that has no errors showing up on it.
This one has me buggered so to speak !
Any suggestions very welcome.
Cheers from NZ
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First off: your non-VW OBD code reader won't tell you anything about the roof (or anything much else about your car). You need VW-specific diagnostics for that.

It sounds like something is stuck or blocked in the roof hydraulics - maybe a valve isn't moving the way it should, for example. Even though you've been in and out of the hydraulic system it seems unlikely that it would simply be a matter of the system needing bleeding. I'm guessing you can't close the trunk without opening the bleed valve on the pump?

You may find it helpful to invest in a VAS5054 which will give you guided fault finding at each stage of the roof process and tell you what to check when things don't work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Just ordered a VAS5054. Correct. Bleed valve open to close the trunk quickly or the vehicle turned off for a while then it can be pushed down under its own weight however it is quite slow this way.
 

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This involved repairing the pump motor
Diagnostics can be useful, but I suspect your problem is related to hydraulics inside the pump and not electronic control which diagnostics could help you with.

You don't say what 'repairs' you have done - what have you done? My guess is something is wrong with the pump solenoid valves, their connections or the internal shuttle valves, all of which are responsible for sending hydraulic fluid to the right places and in the correct direction.

A couple of members have removed their pump, replaced it and afterwards had problems with rams not working. The cause is trapped air even though V.W say the system should purge itself. I can't see this as your problem if it's been working for 4 months. I assume the pump fluid level is correct and not going down due to a leak? You are right not to operate the pump if it seems to labor and nothing moves. The trunk lid rams are easily disconnected at one end. Try that and see if they move in or out without hydraulic resistance. Make sure when you operate the roof switch in one direction then reverse the op. to keep parts back where you started. i.e if the trunk lid is partially open and the rams move o.k when tested disconnected from the lid, replace them back in the same position.
 

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The thing you get from the official diagnostics is the troubleshooting steps that VW say you should take to check things - which is something you don't get from a workshop manual and which I haven't seen anywhere else. I don't know how detailed the guided steps will be in this case, of course.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Thanks for the feedback guys. Aku-Aku, I am looking forward to using the newly ordered diagnostic machine. I got by with a (more expensive), unit that does VW but it really is more generic. It lets you clear codes and throws out the 2804 (I think) code but does not tell you which sensor. Voxmagna, fluid level is correct. I had the classic water damaged electric motor so I removed it, assessed for armature damage , which was just dirty, changed the bearing, renewed the brushes. I also removed the hydraulic pump, solenoids, inspected, cleaned, tested solenoids, re assembled put back in car only to find it also had stretched strings,,,sigh... I worked through finally to get it going over our Covid lockdown time here in NZ with your helpful guidance Voxmagna I might add. The unusual thing about this issue is that the car does not sense or show a fault on the instrument display LCD it just keeps pumping and does not move. I purchased an insurance written off Eos recently ironically, the roof works fine on that car and it drives as well as the roadworthy one and has done 180,000 kilometres less ! Why was it written off, a minor ding on the rear panel drivers side. Engineers said it was structural. I will look at the rams today and report back.
 

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The EOS roof program works like an automatic washing machine. It uses sensors to confirm when a particular part is sensed and when it gets that confirmation moves to the next stage. However, it has a built in watchdog timer and usually you can expect that to stop the operation and kill the pump, followed by an error message on the dash. The fact you aren't getting that (diagnostics may show something) suggests a fault in the controller is holding the pump on when it should be off. That type of fault may not show in diagnostics, although it will help you confirm the sensor outputs when the problem occurs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks Voxmagna, I just swapped the roof controller from the donor car and its the same. I am about to simply swap the hydraulic pump and motor as I type. its an easy quick swap. I'll keep you posted. It should only take an hour.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Update Same result. Roof goes to the same point. So that eliminates the hydraulic pump and solenoids......Next is the hydraulic rams as per your suggestion Voxmagna. I have also removed the boot locking hoops "just in case" it decides to do something silly now I'm in the ram testing phase.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
UPDATE #2 Success ! (Kind of) The roof just closed when I had stripped out the internal linings to expose the rams...The plot thickens. Obviously, now, there is something in the lining that was restricting the operation. Nothing out of the ordinary was found. So I will put the boot linings back in separately and see which one was problematic.
 

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The trunk lid ram pair have to work through an angle and getting the side trims off you should be able to see that. The rams are fairly easy to take out to check their pivots, but keep the lines attached to avoid getting air in. I was going to mention removing the lid hoops but you remembered that. You might think that pair of stubby rams swinging out the lid are puny. But they seem to need a huge amount of hydraulic effort pushing that quadrant around. I know this because I modified a pair of coil spring compressors to keep the lid part open whilst the pump and controller were disconnected. On the effort scale the big rams up front moving the tray and package are numero uno, the lid ram pair second and the rear window frame rams 3rd and fairly wimpy effort wise.

A thought occurred to me that the two gas struts opening the trunk lid have a part to play in balancing the effort needed to swing it out. The trunk lid when unlocked should feel quite light to lift up. If it's heavy the struts have gone bad. Most effort from the hydraulics seems needed from start of opening up to the apex of the swing, after that it's downhill needing less effort. What happens if you have somebody hold the roof open switch (ready to stop!) and help the lid to swing back?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Just going through the process of putting the lining back in the boot area bit by bit to see which one cause the roof to stop opening and stowing away fully.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
ROOF ISSUE RESOLVED It seems a sensor (Sensor 13) right beside the rubber bump stop on the RHS of the car is not receiving the signal correctly to say the roof package is stored and in place. I removed the rubber bump stops and the boot lid closed and the car converted to open top correctly. This seemed a bit odd so I checked the roof at half movement. I found that a little sliding shaft that pulls some lining out of the way was sticking therefore leaving it in place which was enough to keep the roof package away from sensor 13 (RHS Boot/Trunk) that sits on the mudguard right beside the bump stop. Removing the bump stop gave it the extra 3-5mm movement closer to the sensor it needed to carry on its closing process. Only the later model vehicles have a #13 sensor or two in the boot/trunk area apparently.
Now originally that string had broken and was replaced by me but it seems that I have not set it up to the correct tension and its finally, after 4 months changed tension and cause this downstream effect resulting in the roof not fully opening on the final movement. The boot/trunk finally shutting. Pictures to follow.............
 

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Can we have some photos of your problem around the sensor?
Only the later model vehicles have a #13 sensor or two in the boot/trunk area apparently.
Correct.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
So it seems I was caught out by an unusual fault although it did go back to when the roof faulted and showed on the dash there was a fault when the string had broken. I fixed it and the roof kept going. However over time and use (Approx 4 months) its stretched and caused the fabric flap not to move and get stuck between the rubber bump stop in the boot/trunk and the frame of the roof package. No error showing on the dashboard and a pump running but not doing anything. Leading me to think its probably hydraulic related. I only discovered this when I stripped the lining out of the boot to look at the hydraulic rams and happened to try the roof and it worked. I did this without the proper diagnosis machine. However if I had it I would have found the problem straight away and not purchased a donor car for its pump ! Yes I paid the same price for a written off EOS as you pay for a complete pump here in NZ and I got a bunch of great spare parts ! Thanks for all your suggestions and help Voxmagna & Aku-Aku. As an aside it's quite incredible the white EOS has been insurance written off the road for the dent in the picture, its done only 80,000 K's (50,000 Miles)
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Is it possible the "minor bump" has caused misalignment of the rear suspension resulting in tracking or vibration problems requiring expensive repairs?

I have heard of past "write-offs" by insurance companies for this reason knowing the car will bring a good price from dismantlers [wreckers].
 

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I one of my long write ups I warned of potential problems with the 'Y' shaped plastic sprung sliders hidden inside the right and left side capping at the rear. I've had both of mine off. The sliding plastic was very dry, although not yet sticking. I lubricated them with Krytox for super smooth fast retraction of the fabric trims.
I'm afraid too many who haven't seen this dive in to alter/shorten the black strings when these are not the problem.

This is the nearest photo I have as to where they are, I had more important fish to fry at the time and they just got lubed as a matter of course.

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Is it possible the "minor bump" has caused misalignment of the rear suspension resulting in tracking or vibration problems requiring expensive repairs?
The rear is fairly simple to work on compared to the front. All V.Ws have some adjustment that can be done on the axle plates using a 4 wheel laser alignment check and adjust jig in a good tire shop. This is a lot more than just tracking as all 4 wheels are checked. At the first sign of any uneven tire work, get a full 4 wheel alignment check done..
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I one of my long write ups I warned of potential problems with the 'Y' shaped plastic sprung sliders hidden inside the right and left side capping at the rear. I've had both of mine off. The sliding plastic was very dry, although not yet sticking. I lubricated them with Krytox for super smooth fast retraction of the fabric trims.
I'm afraid too many who haven't seen this dive in to alter/shorten the black strings when these are not the problem.

This is the nearest photo I have as to where they are, I had more important fish to fry at the time and they just got lubed as a matter of course.

View attachment 22832

Voxmagna Why didn't I see this post at the start! :-( I guess my key word search did not include reference to the y sliders. Oh well its sorted now. I have also lubed them.
I am putting the donor car on a laser machine to check for chassis alignment to see what the story is. If it appears its not bent or within tolerance I will probably put it back on the road. I do note that it does have a stuck front right shock. It has no movement. So I think it may have a bent shaft. But it will be put up on a hoist over the weekend and we can run the laser over it. I only paid $1750 NZD for it so its a very cheap parts vehicle. Full leather, electrics, all electrical works, starts fine. So we will see. I might start another discussion about putting it back on the road if we decide to if its economical. Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Is it possible the "minor bump" has caused misalignment of the rear suspension resulting in tracking or vibration problems requiring expensive repairs?

I have heard of past "write-offs" by insurance companies for this reason knowing the car will bring a good price from dismantlers [wreckers].
Yes I am going to put it on a hoist and run a laser over it for alignment. I paid $1750 NZD for it so it was a good buy as parts alone. Leather, full electrics, $80Ks on the clock. Sold for $13K 2 years ago from a dealer in Christchurch NZ.
 
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