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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
am trying to sort out a rough idle issue and has one code p0016 for timing corilation but i have had a local ve mechanic double check yhe timing where i changed belt and chain and everything is spot on as far as timing. Am going to change the chain cover soon and see if that helps with the code. I do have a PVC block off kit on the motor as I was trying to rule out PVC leave as the issue I am including 2 videos of the engine running that might help as it sounds like it smooths out when the AV is on but it still seems too loud to me. I have a new timing belt chain and tensioner as well as a new turbo actuator I am hoping some one can point me in the right direction

AC ON

AC OFF
 

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When an engine is modified from stock, diagnostics and internet searches for similar problems or asking others with unmodified engines doesn't always work - You have apples and they have pears! Diagnostics only responds through its software to a standard factory engine. If you ask a dealer to solve your fault, they would start by stripping out non V.W mods which might also include reflashing the ECU back to stock if it's been altered.

Your best bet is to try the tuning forums where there may be more sharing similar mods on your engine?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Fine assume it gas a good pvc valve then as i can put that back on in 5min and it behaves the same way like i said i put a pvc delete plate on si i could rule out pvc leaks other than that it is a full stock engine
 

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--as long as there's no remap been done for the pvc delete?

There are a couple of recent threads here on a similar subject, have you searched? There doesn't seem to be a 'one fix all' solution, but those posts have discussions with contributions for methodical testing and checks for some possible causes. AFIK the OPs haven't found their problem and may have resorted to a dealer as last resort?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
No remapping i actually did the delete at the advice of a vw trained mechanic as it was running worse on the pvc and had massive vaccum going on but they cant get it back in shop to do more diagnostics and change the chain cover which they think is causing the timing code until june so i am just trying to see if i can get anywhere with it.


The funny part is to me it sounds like it has a vac leak the way it idles but i cant gind one and the fact it smooths out when ac is on just confuses me lil
 

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Why do you think the timing cover can cause timing errors?? If it was that badly fitted allowing dirt to get inside, there would be more internal damage done than just the cover? The V.W ECU in stock form is mapped to run the engine with PCV in closed loop. In addition, the ECU is pre-programed to compensate idle and fuelling when the aircon compressor cuts in. It may do this by richening mixture at idle whilst increasing rpm. The last thing anybody wants is the engine cutting out at stops when the aircon comp. cuts in. By removing a key part (PCV) that works with the engine management system without understanding what effect it can have, you just make getting a normal smooth idle that much more difficult. Thousands of these engines are working with their PCV at idle, so you should assume you have another problem, unless your engine or camshaft is badly worn. Concentrating on the PCV just adds to more confusion.

If the last thing you did was change the timing belt/chain yourself and idle was ok before, then that procedure should be the first suspect. I have changed a few belts and chains and it's easy to be a tooth out. I will check the pulley marks at least 3 times rotating the engine between each check before I am sufficiently confident to replace the covers. If you used Chinese tools to do the work, they often make them for mass market Golfs and their timing marks for the EOS can be wrong. I follow V.W EOS workshop procedure every time.

IMHO put back a good well sealing PCV, ensure the ECU is still stock and go looking for the original fault from there, instead of trying to mask it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
ok they are on the assumption that the timing cover is causing the code as the engine is properly timed they broke everything down and checked the timing and everything is physically timed it is giving a correlation on bank a error so they are going on the assumption that the oil port in the cover may be clogged and causing a timing error code apparent they came to this conclusion while on the phone with VW tech support line about the error code and I will try putting the pvc back in today and see what happens
 

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If the last thing you did was change the timing belt/chain yourself and idle was ok before, then that procedure should be the first suspect.
Answer?

Is the MIL light on?

It sounds like a lot of assumptions based on no hard evidence? I've met timing covers on some engines (not these) that cast oil galleries into the ali cover. The cover carries high pressure oil which is then metered to supply oil to camshafts and valve gear. It's a disastrous design because it's hard to keep covers sealed for hot high pressure oil. If this technique is used on your engine and oil supply has been lost to the camshafts, then rapid wear across the cam lobes could result in bad valve timing. But a decent engineer would have looked for that and never assumes anything others say.

It sounds like you are taking what others say on trust when you can really only believe what you know and discover with your own eyes if you know what looks right or wrong? Otherwise you must rely on your mechanics and let them solve the problem if they can. You may have reached the point where this problem requires more knowledge and experience than what one liners from the internet will give you to solve the problem yourself? Virtual discussions between two parties when one side doesn't have eyes on or has limited experience just results in circular wasted effort with nobody really responsible to fix it other than yourself.

Find out what P0016 means, how camshaft timing is measured and done electronically, where its measurements (and tolerances) come from and what components are used. Don't assume a code error is always mechanical, it could be connected to timing corrections done electronically if there are components making corrections, or sensors. V.W compatible diagnostics can read out valve timings in realtime and save results whilst an engine is running. It doesn't sound as though anybody has used diagnostics yet as a proper fault tracing tool, or knows how to? P0016 is pretty meaningless, it just says your engine isn't working properly and not why.

If your engine has a timing chain and oil pressure driven chain tensioner, perhaps your chain isn't running under tension? Is that what the oil gallery in the timing cover is for? A timing chain tensioner problem should be easy to spot by watching cam shaft timing values in real time. They shouldn't be changing wildly during idle and shouldn't be much different after stopping the engine. Furthermore, if the values read back are stable but wrong, then that must confirm the problem is mechanical alignment or the camshaft sensor itself. Also don't ignore the crankshaft sensor because that's part of the timing loop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
My understanding from talking with the mechanic last time it was in is the oild passage on the fsi has to do with the variable timing solenoid rather than the chain itself. But i dont know alot about the engine which is why i asked for input was hoping to get some input from someone that had had a similar or same issue. All i know is the mechanic says everything is fully in time i am simply hoping to manage to solve the issue without being out of a vehicle for a week. Also i reinstalled a new pvc valve and no change
 

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It's really down to you and your mechanic to sort it out. I've made several suggestions already and looking for a one line internet solution won't help when you have failed so far with what you have already done. Your are dealing with a critical part of a gas engine design where mistakes or not solving a problem can be fatal, yet you say you don't know a lot about the engine? Your mechanic is throwing out suggestions, but not fixing your car and there's uncertainty IMHO that anybody involved really knows an efi cam timing system and how to fully use diagnostic tools to do logical fault finding. You talked about timing 'correlation' but haven't provided any figures. What do you think that means, because a word given by a diagnostics scanner is meaningless unless you know what it means in context with how the engine works.

You still haven't confirmed if the MIL light is on or if these problems have only arisen since you starting doing things? You already know the next question: If these problems followed after work was done, then that's where you look. If your mechanic tells you things are o.k, why isn't he fixing your problem? Do you think your are better than him or is he out of his depth when it comes to solving a difficult problem or wants to avoid it? When anybody starts making suggestions to replace parts (at your expense) without any credible supporting evidence, testing or taking ownership, I would questions their reasons, unless they are just guessing like you are or asking Google?

The MIL warning is important because if it's 'On', V.W are telling you it could be a serious engine fault needing to be checked by a competent mechanic. If the cam chain tensioner is faulty (research V.W cam chain tensioners) and the chain is running slack, the engine will still run until there's a backfire. Engine rotation reversal may then occur, followed by serious engine damage and your engine will be written off.

You've 'Had a go at things' but not solved the problem. Sometimes it's wiser to accept defeat and leave it to a competent mechanic. At least if they screw up your engine you can get compensation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
yes the CEL is on or I wouldn't be checking the codes.

the chain tensioner is fine as the chain is tight with no slack.or so I was informed

I am working on it solely as the shop doesn't have another appointment until June and I am out of work due to an injury so it is giving me something to do. the part replacement was based on a recommendation from VW support. we went so far as to pull the timing selenoid from his own vehicle to make sure that wasn't the issue rather than me having to wait for the part to arrive so I consider that him taking ownership of the problem especially since I did the original belt and chain replacement I simply took it to their shop as i had everything timed but still had a P0016 error that came after the change and simple paid them to take it all back apart and check my work and they are being kind enough to work on it based on their labor warranty since they took it back apart to check it. as for my expense, I have paid for one part so far and that was the gaskets. I actually told them I would purchase the timing cover only because if that is the issue it is more than likely from where I had it off. As for the correlation, what figures would you like I am going by the fact that the ECU said that the 2 sensors don't match when everything is physically lined up.
 

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the chain tensioner is fine as the chain is tight with no slack.or so I was informed
You take too much of what you are told for granted without question. If you have a hydraulic chain tensioner like the many reported to fail and give problems in V.Ws, how can anybody tell you a chain is tight when it's under the timing cover and only tensions the chain when the engine runs with oil pressure? There is only one way I know of, so ask your expert to tell you how he knows the tensioner is tight and working when the engine runs? If he doesn't give the answer at the end of my reply, he's not worth trusting.
As for the correlation, what figures would you like I am going by the fact that the ECU said that the 2 sensors don't match when everything is physically lined up.
You haven't understood that a fault code only tells you there's a fault and nothing more. You have to read the output from the cam angle sensors (in degrees) and understand what the results are telling you. Correlation means the degrees of cams are each within a close tolerance of each other and not offset or changing as the engine runs. V.W incorporate tolerances into values coming off sensors and when these are read outside a permitted range, a fault code is triggered either real because that's what's happening (evidenced by your poor idle), or a faulty sensor isn't giving a value the ECU expects. When you have two of something, V.W often compare values they expect to 'track'.

I've already suggested you look at camshaft timing controlling elements. I don't have your engine but fault find from first principle engineering, not Google, the internet or what somebody asks me to believe. I'm not saying a camshaft tensioner is your actual problem, that's for you to pursue and eliminate yourself, not just take what you have been told. But let's hypothetically consider the chain you can't see is running slack? Of course as I said it's the one thing if true that will destroy your engine which you must take out of the equation and be confident about. You seem good at reading the internet so plug in 'V.W timing chain tensioner' and ask yourself if you should have thought about it whilst replacing the chain? That's the difference between a competent V.W shop and your DIY attempts. You can use diagnostics to monitor the camshaft angle when the engine is running. Those figures can give some information about chain slackness or wear. AFIK that is the only way of measuring if something is wrong when the chain parts are hidden under the cover and running in oil.

What else is left I've not already mentioned? If one camshaft bearing is badly worn, the chain may be held tight but the shaft will run eccentric and angles measured by sensors will not correlate. I would expect to see small cyclical differences in camshaft angles varying at roughly half engine speed frequency? OBD tools are probably too slow to see this, but other tools connected directly to camshaft sensor outputs might show this better. I don't think you'll easily find this kind of innovative 'Outside the box' testing on the internet, or have the test equipment to do it.

If the VVT was suspect in the first instance, there are some tests which could have been done and diagnostics should have shown the camshaft advancing or retarding with rpm as further evidence of a fault or not before you swapped parts. But you both seem to want to change parts. Eventually you will be swapping the complete engine!

If you and your mechanic want a credible information source from the internet, go look at this company:
 

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IMHO that might be the first thing to look for after an internet search, but uncorrelated camshaft timing angles reported in this thread wouldn't be caused by a vacuum leak? What do you think might cause these timing errors which are angular errors between the crank shaft and mechanically connected camshafts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
IMHO that might be the first thing to look for after an internet search, but uncorrelated camshaft timing angles reported in this thread wouldn't be caused by a vacuum leak? What do you think might cause these timing errors which are angular errors between the crank shaft and mechanically connected camshafts?
so which channels should I bee looking at to check the the angles?
 

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IMHO that might be the first thing to look for after an internet search, but uncorrelated camshaft timing angles reported in this thread wouldn't be caused by a vacuum leak? What do you think might cause these timing errors which are angular errors between the crank shaft and mechanically connected camshafts?
 

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Maybe a trip to VW Repair shop for a free estimate.
The OP said he doesn't know much about engines and wants a challenge to fix it himself. He doesn't have decent test kit and know how to get the best from what he already has.
 
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